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 Thanks Wasil... here is another interview (Re: بكرى ابوبكر)
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Thank you, Wasil for this excellent interview...
few days after your interview, another one was done by Jerry Fowler, member of Judgment on Genocide project, that indicted and tried al-Bashir in NYC last month.
I found it's very interesting that GOS has laready started procedures of indictment against new 14 defndants inside Sudan. I'm wondering who are these people? definitly not from the senior perpetrators...!
I thought it would be useful to your audience to benefit as well from this new interview:
http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/analysis/details.php?content=2006-12-21
DECEMBER 21, 2006, JUSTICE FOR DARFUR?
JERRY FOWLER: My guest today is Luis Moreno-Ocampo. He is Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. At the request of the Security Council, he has been investigating the situation in Darfur since March 2005. He joins us from his office in The Hague, the Netherlands. Chief Prosecutor, welcome back to the program.
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Thank you, thank you very much.
JERRY FOWLER: Chief Prosecutor, you were in New York last week and reported to the Security Council, specifically about your investigation into Darfur, and you told them that you expect to be submitting evidence to the Court by this coming February. Can you tell us, what does that mean? What will the process be from here to February?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, since the Security Council first referred the case, this is the first time we are going there in six months to explain what we did and what we are planning to do for two reasons: first because they can encourage cooperation with us, but second because they are in charge of the comprehensive problems. They had to deal with a different aspect like humanitarian help for the people that are displaced, security and communications, but also they referred to us the case because they believe that lasting peace requires justice, and then my part is this piece. I had to the justice peace, and then my duty is to keep them informed so that they can understand how our justice investigation could impact the overall situation, and that is their responsibility. When I am going there I am representing evidence; I am not presenting names; I am just giving them a presentation on what we did and the road map for the future. My last brief was December 14, and we explained to them that we almost complete the investigation of the first case in Darfur. We collect enough evidence to prove crimes against humanity and war crimes, including massive rapes, including execution of prisoners, torture, killings, pillaging, persecution, different types of crimes that occurred in 2003-2004, which is the time when the peak of the violence occurred. We have enough evidence to identify who are the most responsible for these crimes. As I say, I think it is the most important aspect of the case; the case will unveil the system who built the crimes. That is why I think it will be very important. Before I inform them—we plan to proceed in February—now we are trying to take security measures to protect our witnesses, so that is what we are doing between December and January.
JERRY FOWLER: What is it that you will do step-by-step? You present evidence to the judges and they have the power to issue arrest warrants?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: It is one possibility. The laws also say that I can request from Sudan a summons to appear before the Court to the individuals named, so it is not just another warrant. It is early to know what will be the outcome; the issue is that it is the beginning of the process. After we present the evidence, we identify the incidents and the individual has to be investigated in particular.
JERRY FOWLER: One technique that was used with actually great affect by the ad hoc tribunal for Yugoslavia was secret arrest warrants where arrest warrants were issued but it was kept secret and the individuals who were the subject of them did not know that they were subject to the warrant until they were apprehended. Do you have the ability to do that?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, in fact we did in Congo and Uganda, but maybe we are not doing this in this case because this case is a different case. It is early to mention, but probably we are not doing it this way.
JERRY FOWLER: I see. One question many people have when you talk about making out this case for the people who are most responsible is how far up the chain of command you think you will be able to go.
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: That is important in this case. I believe we can prove the system and we can show how these crimes were committed and how the system was organized, so that is why I think it is a very important case.
JERRY FOWLER: What are some of the challenges as a prosecutor to establishing the system, to establishing the structure that committed the crimes?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: The first challenge was that we had to investigate Darfur without going to Darfur. That was the most difficult part of our work in this case because in addition to this ongoing violence, there is an ongoing conflict, but this happened in Congo and Uganda, but even in Congo and Uganda, with limitation, we could go to the ground. In this case, basically the problem is that we cannot protect the witness in Darfur. When we interview a person, we have different steps. We have to first assess the security of the person; we have to assess if it is a victim if we can do some study to be sure not to re-traumatize this person. Then when we interview them, it is a protocol to explain what we are doing, record in different ways what the person is saying, and after that, we have to establish a system to protect the persons because we basically have to call this witness again, and the law says that we have to protect these peoples. We cannot do all of this in Darfur. From the beginning we decided how we could prove these crimes from outside. Then we developed a strategy, and basically we screened witnesses of the war. We screened more than 600 witnesses, and finally we took more like 100 statements; most of them eye-witnesses. In this way, we could reach the victims without going to Darfur. That was a huge challenge, but in addition, then the other issue was that the conflict in Darfur is very complicated—it has different faces, different actors—so it was very important not to discriminate the different groups that intervened in there. The laws say that we have to keep impartiality and we have to investigate incriminating circumstances, so what we did was we sent a request to the government of Sudan to interview some people, and finally in August, the government of Sudan authorized that and we could be in Khartoum interviewing two high officials from the civilian and military side who were involved in these facts and because of their positions, they could give us important information about what happened there. Basically, we could organize a very comprehensive investigation—of course what was very important, we received the information collected by the International Commission of Inquiry—but also, we received a report from the National Commission of Inquiry, and then we can check the information from many sources. Finally, I believe we have a very impartial investigation and a very thorough one.
JERRY FOWLER: These government officials that you interviewed in August, were they all the people that you requested to interview?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: No, we requested more, and we have outstanding requests, but we received two important interviews.
JERRY FOWLER: Do you think that you will the opportunity to go back and interview additional government officials, or have you basically moved on from that aspect of the investigation?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Interestingly, in November, we sent a letter to the government saying that we are doing the final assessment on the case. That means that we want to check if they are doing a case against the same individual that we are investigating, and then the government sent to us a list of 14 new names that they are investigating, and our case is still admissible, but we request to the government of Sudan to interview these people, to understand what they do.
JERRY FOWLER: To interview the 14 people they say that they are investigating?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, so we are requesting to go in January to Khartoum to interview these people. The government in principle agreed, so we are planning this second part.
JERRY FOWLER: When you talk about admissibility, that is the principle that if a national government is conducting a good faith investigation, that then the ICC would stand back, right?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, we have to respect any genuine national proceedings. The first thing we had to check when we did the admissibility test is that if they are doing the same case, we have to check if it is a genuine case. That is the law.
JERRY FOWLER: When you say the same case, you are talking about involving the same individuals?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Basically, the same individuals and the same behavior. It could be a slightly different incidence because there are many, but basically the same behavior, the same attributions. That is what we are trying to find. That is why we believe our case is still admissible.
JERRY FOWLER: I see. I don’t believe I asked you this before; about how many defendants do you anticipate being involved in this?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: No, we are not saying that; we present these names and numbers and evidence to the judges in February.
JERRY FOWLER: You refer to this as the first case in Darfur and it is dealing with the years 2003-2004. Do you anticipate that there will be additional cases?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, we always say that because the conflict is so complicated, we are planning to do a sequence of cases, and probably we are now discussing the second investigation while we are still in the middle of finishing the first one, but as soon as we are ready, we are planning to start the second investigation focusing on the current crimes, and we are worried because there is a spillover of violence. We now have cases in Chad that could be connected with our crimes. What we are planning to do is try to monitor all these new crimes, and interestingly, in this case we do not need a new referral from the Security Council because the Central African Republic is a state party, and in fact, they gave to us a referral like more than one year ago; and Chad is now, just joined the International Criminal Court system, so from January we can open a case in Chad because they are a state party. Now we can basically, in a combination of the referral from the Security Council and these states who are a member of the Court, we can do, as needed, a comprehensive investigation of the region. We are worried about these crimes across the borders.
JERRY FOWLER: In terms of your jurisdiction in Chad, does it only take affect in January or does it cover crimes that would have been committed before January?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: No, it would cover before also.
JERRY FOWLER: When I spoke to you last year, I understood you to say that you had not requested assistance from the United States government in terms of intelligence and information. Has that changed?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: No.
JERRY FOWLER: So, you have not requested assisted from them, and presumably then, have not gotten assistance?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: No.
JERRY FOWLER: Let me turn to the situation in Uganda. The first arrest warrants that were issued by the Court were issued for five individuals associated with the Lord’s Resistance Army, including the leader of the LRA, Joseph Kony. Can you bring us up to date on that situation?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, one of these five persons called Raska Lukwiya caught fire with the Ugandan army in Uganda and he was killed, so our forensic group supported Ugandan authorities, and then they confirmed this person was killed. There are four remaining commanders at large, and we are still working and have to organize cooperation to arrest them because the Court, as you know, does not have its own army or own police, so we rely on cooperation. We are working on these galvanizing efforts to arrest them. In the meantime, what happened is—in part because of our intervention—we galvanized some efforts in the region because Congo and Uganda who had in the past bad relations, both agreed to execute the warrants because they are state parties, and the Sudan, who is not a state party, signed an agreement with us, committing itself to execute the warrant. In part because of this new situation and all of the factors, the LRA lost its safe haven in Southern Sudan, and they had to move to the border between Congo and Sudan, to Garamba Park, an area with almost no state control, but also they were trying to reach an agreement because they were more exposed. That is, for these reasons of what happened to date, the crimes are drastically reduced in Northern Uganda and in Southern Sudan. Even though they are still at large, the Court has an impact there. Of course, the way to ensure security and justice is arresting them, but that the idea of the Court is producing a drastic reduction of new crimes in Northern Uganda.
JERRY FOWLER: As you have said, there have been negotiations between the government of Uganda and the LRA for a peace agreement, and as I understand, or at least according to news reports, one of the final outstanding issues involved the fact that they were under indictment by the ICC, or the leaders were, and that they were requesting an amnesty. Having perhaps contributed to pushing towards reduction in crimes and an agreement, is the existence of the arrest warrants now becoming an obstacle to actually having peace?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: No, because I think the arrest warrants are the main reason they are looking for a solution, so in that way, people have to understand that justice will help to stabilize. My feeling is that the best idea is to arrest them, but in the meantime, there are no crimes today. The government of Uganda sent a formal presentation to the judges of the International Criminal Court saying that they never withdraw the case; they never requested to withdraw the case; they are working this demobilization and the decision process, but they say it was premature to define the outcome, but that they are clear of their obligation and statute, and whatever solution we will become party with the International Criminal Court’s statutes; so that is what they say.
JERRY FOWLER: The other situation that you have been very active on has been the Democratic Republic of Congo, and since we have talked last year, the Court has actually gotten custody of its first defendant, Thomas Lubanga , a war lord from northeastern Congo, and he is now in the Hague. How long will it be until his trial begins?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: We have just ended the confirmation hearing a few weeks ago, two weeks ago, and normally, as soon as the judges decide, we believe the judges will approve the charges, and then we move to a trial. We estimate six months between the confirmation hearing and the trials, so probably in July or August we will have the first trial.
JERRY FOWLER: Now, as I understand it, the main charges against him involve the recruitment of child soldiers. On the one hand, that is a very serious problem; on the other hand, it barely scratches the surface of the types of crimes that have been committed in Congo.
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Yes, we understand this, but we believe—look, I have a 13-year-old son. If someone abduct him and turn him into a killer, I would die. It turns out that this is a very, very serious crime. Of course, it is not the only crime that they committed—they allegedly committed. The problem is that we have a time limit because Lubanga was in custody in Congo, but he could be released at the end of March, so what I decided in October was that we were investigating a bigger spectrum of crimes, including murders and rapes, but we were not ready to request a well-founded arrest warrant for the other crimes. That is why I decided—I never want to move without evidence—so I decided, sorry, normally it is my policy to prove a bigger example of the criminality, but in this case, the problem is that I have a time limit, and I am ready with child soldiers, and I have not enough evidence for the other crimes because I need to not prove just the crimes because there are many killings and rapes, but the problem is that I do not have enough evidence of his personal involvement to prove his criminal responsibility. That is why I decided to present these charges for the case, and that is why the first case will be about child soldiers. In some way, which I explain to you, it is the legal reason, but I think it is important to highlight the gravity of the crime.
JERRY FOWLER: The other concern that is raised with regard to the trial of Lubanga is that he is one person in a situation that has claimed untold numbers of lives. Are there future arrest warrants or indictments coming with regard to Congo?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Thomas Lubanga was the first case, not the last one in Congo. We are doing an investigation on all the groups, all the militias, and we are planning a third case in Congo. Yes, Congo is an area in which we will do different types of cases, and Lubanga is just the first.
JERRY FOWLER: Do you have a sense of the time frame for future cases?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: This year, 2007, will be the second case, and probably 2008 will be the third case.
JERRY FOWLER: Let me just finish up; earlier this month, Augusto Pinochet died in Chile. He, of course, was the dictator in Chile for about 18 years. The neighboring country, you are from Argentina, and you were involved in the prosecution of former military officers in Argentina earlier in your career. What would be your observations on Pinochet’s case? Of course, he was detained for quite some time in London, almost extradited to Spain, and then ultimately sent back to Chile where the domestic justice system started being very active after not having been active in the period shortly after the military regime?
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: It is interesting because in both cases, international activities were key to help national activities, and I think it is a good example. In Chile, the exhibitions requested by the Judge were very important and the position of the laws was very important too. This changed completely; the perception of Pinochet in Chile; completely. That is why after that he could be investigating in Chile itself. In Argentina it was a little different. In Argentina during the time of the dictatorship in 1980, the Inter-American Inquiry Commission came to Argentina, and that was clearly important to stop the crimes. Then Argentina we could do for different reasons because Argentina generally were for war in the Malvina South land, and then, because they lost, there was a new election, and then during the election, the issue of human rights became a big issue, and then we could proceed with them nationally. In most cases, you see the influence, how people outside of the country could help, and that for me is something that we have to learn; how international community—you never could replace the need for local leaders, the need for national leaders—but sometimes you can help to change the dynamic and to promote the international justice system. The other day, I was in a discussion with a professor from Minneapolis, Katherine Seaking. She is documenting how these transitional justice mechanisms are helping to build better democracies, better systems, so I think it is a new path, and it was a new path Argentina, and Chile, and Africa were a new path in creating new kinds of transformations, and now we have the International Criminal Court which is trying to do something even bigger because we are trying to promote the idea that there is a law within the world to stop these massive crimes and that the international community will be enforcing international law. That is new in the world. We are really in timing with it. Sometimes people are reading and saying and seeing catastrophe situations, but also, humanity is learning. Humanity is learning how to face catastrophe, and that is why the Holocaust Museum is so important because we have to learn from these catastrophe situations and then learn how to avoid it. This institution, the International Criminal Court, is one vision that could help a lot to avoid these atrocities.
JERRY FOWLER: My guest has been Luis Moreno-Ocampo. He is Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in The Hague. Chief Prosecutor thanks for taking the time to be with us.
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO: Thank you so much, bye.
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بكرى ابوبكر
Muna Khugali
Hussein Mallasi
هشام هباني
saif massad ali
omar ali
عبد المنعم سليمان
يوسف الولى
نصار
waleed500
خضر عطا المنان
Wasil Ali
فاروق حامد محمد
Mohamed Suleiman
wadalzain
محمدين محمد اسحق
Yasir Elsharif
ابوعسل السيد احمد
ناذر محمد الخليفة
ابراهيم برسي
Moneim Elhoweris
Elmosley
رأفت ميلاد
Adel Sameer Tawfiq
حيدر حسن ميرغني
فيس بوك
تويتر
انستقرام
يوتيوب
بنتيريست