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 Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a (Re: محمد صديق عبد الله)
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Mohamed: I believe he should have said (doctors whom we trust with our health).
Mr X: He has definitely made a mistake, probably because the idea of trust represents the pivot of his interest in his celebration of the role played by the Muslim doctors. My scenario is that he is grammatically rewarding the Muslim doctors by giving them the positive subject status in relation to trust instead of the object position dictated or determined by the syntactic construction.. as for the model translation you have put forward, i believe its perfect. i should add one thing and you may correct me if i am wrong. the relative pronoun "who" in place of "whom" is more or at least equally common these days.
Mohamed: Many thanks, Mr X, for your comment. So, both yourself and I see there is a mistake. Yes I do agree that (whom) and (who) are often used interchangeably in such a context, especially in informal situations. However, they are not equally correct grammatically, as implied in your comment. I believe you expertly used the word (common) rather than (correct) to avoid saying that they are equally correct grammatically. From many previous discussions with other linguists, I can safely say that words like (common and nowadays) are often used to make recent usages, which contradict established rules, acceptable, based on the currency of these new forms, not on their correctness, if I may use the word. Finally, I should say that the translation provided is not mine.
Mr X: language is a complicated social behaviour and it always adapts itself to changing life. what we have as standard language has actually been established by taking a snapshot of language in use at a certain period of time for a certain community group, put a banner on it as the "refined version" and impose it on other existing varieties. The Guran was revealed mainly in the Language or dialect of Guraish and that led to the domination of the Guraishi dialect and caused it to emerge as the "Formal Arabic". in the same way when printing was invented in Britain, the Londoners represented the upperclass community and the centre of government was in London. For social and economical reasons most of the printed materials were in the London dialect and so the way was paved for this version to have a kind of supremacy. what i would like to say is that correctness in rules exactly means (being common) but at an earlier stage of development.
Mohamed: I cannot agree more that any language is bound to change, but I don’t agree that commonness necessarily leads to correctness. There have always been rules in place for (almost) every standard language, and these rules tend to be ignored in informal situations. Commonness, or frequency of use if you like, does not legitimize new forms that easily. In informal Arabic, for instance, the (ين) ending is commonly used with the Masculine Sound/Regular Plural in the nominative, accusative and genitive cases; however, when it comes to formal language, there is no way you can use it in the nominative case. And here I am not suggesting, by any means, that commonness is not an early stage of admitting new forms into the language. New forms are continuously included into English, Arabic and others, but one can say that there is more room for such inclusion at the lexical level than at the syntactic level.
One more thing to add, not every native Londoner speaks refined Standard English. The Standard English or the BBC English is often associated with the South of England, and so is the Received Pronunciation (RP), as far as I am concerned.
Mr X: Then i have to ask a couple of questions if i may. who made these rules which you take as "in place for every standard language؟ What are the criteria for determining correctness in a language, and what actually happens if one fails to conform to some prescribed form؟
Mr X: i also draw your attention to that i don't believe in the idea of "refined or standard language". this only seems to happen as a result of social and economical supremacy of a certain group as i have mentioned. i have worked for five years in the Saudi Army Aviation Force Base teaching English to Officers and Cadets. We taught a series called "American Language Course" that came from "Lack-land Air force Base in America". Do you know that if you just mention the word "English:, the Americans get nervous and correct you harshly ' American Language".i remember once i asked for some "answer sheets:. i pronounced the initial vowel in the word "answer" in the British way. the Head of Department said to me " Khaled, if you want "answer sheets" (imitating my pronunciation) go to Britain".
Mohamed: Yours are broad general questions that need face-to-face rather than Facebook discussion. But, allow me to give short answers to your questions.
Who made these rules which you take as "in place for every standard language؟
Basically, grammarians and linguists. Basic Arabic grammar, for example, is linked to only a few names. All subsequent linguists are drawing on the works of those few. In a globalized world, new forms are mainly introduced by journalists, authors, editors and the like. Language academies, and to a lesser degree lexicographers, determine which new form is worthy of inclusion.
What are the criteria for determining correctness in a language, and what actually happens if one fails to conform to some prescribed form؟
Correctness is primarily measured against authoritative grammar books, dictionaries, etc. Now, new forms are subject to approval by language academies (usually based on frequency of use). Nothing happens if one fails to abide by the rules. Mind you that the basic purpose of language is communication. As long as one gets their message across, that is fine. But, if they are after a job that requires a certain level of knowledge of standard language, for example, they are in trouble.
Mr X: allow me to disagree with you completely on that. the role of grammarians and linguists is not prescribe but to describe the way language is used. if the speaker and the listener are using a code that deviates from the standard language, which i insist on calling a dialect imposed by a certain group, and they are making perfect communication then i would say that the language they are using is perfect. as for the last point of yours i think it sums up my point. jobs as such do not require a specific standard language. it is the power behind the job that dictates this version or that.
Mohamed: Well, I can’t really see where you are coming from, but your statements are contradictory. One time you say there’s no such thing as standard language, and then you say, and I am quoting you:
“if the speaker and the listener are using a code that DEVIATES FROM THE STANDARD LANGUAGE, which i insist on calling a dialect imposed by a certain group, and they are making perfect communication then i would say that the language they are using is perfect.”
Do you or do you not believe in the existence of standard language؟
You also say: “the role of grammarians and linguists is not prescribe but to describe the way language is used”.
Do you regard Sibawayhi and Abdalla Eltayeb as linguists in the same sense؟
Yes, it is grammarians and linguists (especially Arab ones) who decide on new usages. If not them, who else؟ I would suggest you visit the websites of the Arabic language academies.
You also say: “as long as speakers make perfect communication, then the language they are using is perfect.”
What level of language do you mean؟
Are you saying that ordinary speakers can give approval to the use of a transitive verb as intransitive؟
Mr X: i am saying that the use of transitive and intransitive verbs occurs in natural language by ordinary speakers and that ordinary speakers do not consult grammarians or seek approval from any authority. it is the grammarian who should seek the approval of the ordinary speakers when he is in the process of figuring out any rule about language.
Mr X: i am not contradicting any of my statements but you you misquoted me by leaving out part of my statement. i said "which i insist on callind a dialect imposed.........". language rules are made through the observation of the natural occurrence of language.
Mohamed: As you may have noticed, I keep using words like (approval) and (frequency of use). These words indicate that I mean the changes are actually initiated by (users) of the language, not linguists. Members of language academies, I assume, view themselves as purists and protectors of the language, and hence resist changes and only accept them with reluctance on the basis that excessive changes corrupt the language. So, I don’t have any problem with the notion that linguists monitor the development of the language, record uses by other (players) and act accordingly. I should also add that I find the word (users) more accurate than (speakers) when referring to Arabic, because of the diglossic nature of Arabic.
My question is: As a teacher of English language, what criteria do you use when you mark grammar tests؟
Mr X: Testing grammar is about reproducing internalized structures in an unnatural setting. Dealing with language in the classroom and academic language in general can be labelled correct or incorrect according to well-established criteria dictated by some authority. Most of the language, however; occur in natural settings: conversations, speeches, songs, etc where the tools "correct" "incorrect" give so little help. i believe that any model of linguistic study should try to account for what arises in normal social communication rather than for what classroom teachers or translators actually do.
Mohamed:
You: Dealing with language in the classroom and academic language in general can be labelled correct or incorrect according to well-established criteria dictated by (some authority).
Myself: There have always been rules in place for (almost) every standard language, and these rules tend to be ignored in informal situations.
Don’t you see we are of the same mind on this issue؟
Some authority! Speakers or linguists؟
Mr X: we agree on that. only i add that most of language occurrence takes the form of face to face conversations, speeches, songs. prayers which do not usually abide by prescribed grammatical rules and can break them when they seem awkward or confusing.
Mohamed: Thanks a bunch for your patience and insightful comments, Mr X.
Mohamed: Obama's mistake corrected!
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-muhammad-musri-obama-mosque-20160216-story.htmlhttp://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-muhammad-musri-obama-mosque-20160216-story.html
Mohamed: And this is for Mr X. (Who) is also used.
http://www.globalhealthnow.org/.../a-presidential-appealhttp://www.globalhealthnow.org/.../a-presidential-appeal...
Mr X: hahahahaahaha i am afraid some day i will see you walking around the streets of London carrying a red marker correcting conversation mistakes. Could Obama have used some vernacular؟
(عدل بواسطة محمد صديق عبد الله on 09-13-2017, 07:10 PM)
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| العنوان |
الكاتب |
Date |
| عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-05-17, 10:25 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-05-17, 10:31 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أيمن الفاضل | 09-05-17, 10:47 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-05-17, 10:50 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبدالغني محمد الحاج | 09-05-17, 11:11 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-05-17, 12:22 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-05-17, 12:30 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-05-17, 01:31 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أيمن الفاضل | 09-05-17, 01:42 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-05-17, 01:54 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أيمن الفاضل | 09-05-17, 02:49 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-08-17, 02:16 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-05-17, 03:27 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | Mahjob Abdalla | 09-05-17, 04:20 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | جمال ود القوز | 09-06-17, 03:30 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | Mahjob Abdalla | 09-06-17, 03:03 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-07-17, 06:24 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-07-17, 10:37 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-08-17, 02:14 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-09-17, 04:31 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-11-17, 02:28 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-11-17, 02:57 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-11-17, 03:37 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-11-17, 04:04 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-11-17, 06:38 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-11-17, 07:47 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-12-17, 00:19 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-12-17, 05:07 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-12-17, 05:28 AM |
| انتهى "الدرس" يا "حاتل"""" | osama elkhawad | 09-12-17, 06:43 AM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;andquot;andquot | امير بوب | 09-12-17, 09:18 AM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | أبوبكر عباس | 09-12-17, 09:49 AM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-12-17, 12:58 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-12-17, 12:59 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | أبوبكر عباس | 09-12-17, 01:26 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | أبوبكر عباس | 09-12-17, 02:30 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-13-17, 10:18 AM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-13-17, 06:37 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-13-17, 06:56 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-13-17, 07:33 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | osama elkhawad | 09-13-17, 09:03 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-13-17, 09:35 PM |
| Re: انتهى andquot;الدرسandquot; يا andquot;حاتلandquot;andquot;a | أبوبكر عباس | 09-13-17, 10:46 PM |
| عيدية لحاتم ابراهيم | قسم الفضيل مضوي محمد | 09-14-17, 04:27 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-14-17, 05:33 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-14-17, 06:18 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عمر دهب | 09-14-17, 07:34 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-14-17, 01:30 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-14-17, 05:07 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-14-17, 06:24 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-14-17, 08:54 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-15-17, 00:23 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-15-17, 01:17 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-15-17, 01:26 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-15-17, 01:56 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-15-17, 02:15 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-15-17, 02:33 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-15-17, 03:19 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | ابراهيم عبد الوهاب | 09-17-17, 06:33 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-17-17, 06:43 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-15-17, 02:31 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-15-17, 03:21 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-15-17, 10:20 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | زينب محمد عبدالله | 09-15-17, 02:52 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-15-17, 03:09 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | قسم الفضيل مضوي محمد | 09-15-17, 04:24 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-15-17, 04:48 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 10:57 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | MAHJOOP ALI | 09-16-17, 01:03 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-16-17, 03:35 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 07:51 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 07:51 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 07:55 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-16-17, 08:12 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-16-17, 09:03 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-16-17, 09:05 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-16-17, 09:21 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-16-17, 09:34 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 09:38 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 09:38 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-16-17, 10:24 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عبد الصمد محمد | 09-16-17, 11:40 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | MAHJOOP ALI | 09-16-17, 11:45 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | حاتم إبراهيم | 09-17-17, 02:19 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-17-17, 10:57 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-17-17, 11:26 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | أبوبكر عباس | 09-17-17, 11:55 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-17-17, 12:08 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-17-17, 11:10 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | Yassir Ahmed | 09-18-17, 08:34 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | امير بوب | 09-18-17, 10:43 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عليش الريدة | 09-18-17, 11:14 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-18-17, 11:32 AM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | امير بوب | 09-18-17, 03:10 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | muntasir | 09-18-17, 03:54 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | osama elkhawad | 09-18-17, 03:55 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | عليش الريدة | 09-18-17, 04:14 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | سيف النصر محي الدين | 09-18-17, 05:09 PM |
| Re: عيدية للأخ حاتم إبراهيم | محمد صديق عبد الله | 09-18-17, 09:10 PM |
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محمد صديق عبد الله
فيس بوك
تويتر
انستقرام
يوتيوب
بنتيريست