الباقر عثمان: الجنوب قاتل كل الشمال واختلف معه واختار الانفصال!

The Minutes Of 1947 Juba Conference,


Introduction,

Although we can not change history, it will always remain vital for us to revisit our history in order to take well-informed decision that would shape our future.
One has to say, if the phrase may be permitted, that one of the defects of our culture was the lack of the Art of writing. Due to that, great portion of our history has been lost through the Art of verbal history- telling and event-reporting. At least our twentieth century history should not be part of that unfortunate lost of great civilization that I believe had existed in this part of Africa.
In that matter, I started a quest, although un-professional, I have managed to gather some disconnected documents. One of these documents was the minutes of Juba Conference. I first found this document in the library of the late Army Brigadier Gordon Mathei, among many documents that this great man used to have. That document was in a form of papers written with the old fashion typewriter. This was in Khartoum back in 1990s. The other document I found was an Arabic version of the Juba Conference, which seemed to have been licked out from somewhere [I believe the National Archives Department in Khartoum]. This Arabic version was severely distorted for one reason or another. This was in Khartoum also back in 1990s.
In Egypt, the document was distributed in the SPLM/A chapter in Cairo in 2003, but only the resolutions of the conference and some names of the attending members were disclosed in Arabic language.
But in Egypt I found the whole document in the Egyptian circles that are concerned with the Sudanese problem which was also a distorted Arabic version of the conference minutes. By comparing the two Arabic versions they were almost the same except for the difference in distortion itself.
At last I rested on a book published back in 1960s by the famous Northern Writer Professor Mohamed Omer Basher named “The South Sudan, Background to the Conflict”. This book was published by then to convince the west [America and Europe] that Southerners not Northerners were the cause of the problem in the South. The Book was largely distributed in the west but not in the Sudan.
When I found this book and compared it to what I have already gathered I confirmed the authenticity of the document, but I still feel not sure to declare the full authenticity of the Document. Still the document’s authenticity is open to questioning since all these documents are in the ‘Northern outlook’ or ‘British outlook’. I hope our historians will do the full and better job in that regard.
My motive to publish this document is almost obvious to every Southerner, we are now to decide again whether to join the North again or go for separation.
The Southerners of that time were un-informed [at least majority of them], and that is why the acted in the way that you will read here. As to us, Southerners of today, we have no excuse at all, this decision is final and should be well taken. That is why every information should be available to every Southerner not only the elites. This internet propaganda is one of many ways I will use to distribute this document and other document that I believe would help put Southerners in a better and well-informed position to decide. If any one can help distribute this document I will be highly grateful to him/her.

Maker Costa Mapuor.



The Meeting:

The following were present:

Britons:
J. w. Robertson, Esq., MBE, Civil Secretary, Chairman
F. D. Kingston, Esq., Governor of Upper Nile
B. v. Marwood, Esq., Governor of Equatoria
G. H. Barter, Esq., Director of Establishment
M. F. A. Keen, Esq., Assistant Civil Secretary (Councils)
T. R. H. Owen, Esq., Deputy Governor of Bahr al Ghazal

Northerners:
Judge Mohamed Saleh al Shingeiti.
Ibrahim Eff. Badri
Hassan Eff. Ahmed Osman
Dr. Habib Abdulla
Shiekh Serur Mohamed Ramli

Southerners:
Mr. Kamyangi Ababa
Mr. Philmon Majok Kuong [Sgt. Major]
Mr. Clement Mboro
Mr. Hassan Fartak
Mr. James Tembura
Mr. Both Dhiu
Mr.Siriciro Iro
Mr. Edward Adhok
Chief Cier Rehan
Chief Giir Kerou
Chief Ukuma Bazia
Chief Lolik Lado
Chief Lopponya
Chief Tete
Chief Luoth Ajak
Pastor Andrea Apaya
Father Guido Akou

The meeting opened at 9:30 a.m. on Thursday June12, 1947.
The Chairman in his opening speech said:
Gentlemen,
I should first of all like to say how glad I am to see you all today, and on behalf of those of us who are visitors I wish to thank the Governor, Mr. Marwood, and the other residents in Juba, who have welcomed us so hospitably and generously.
The origin of this meeting lies in the developments of the administration and policy in Northern Sudan. Last year, the Governor –General, Sir Hubert Huddleston, set up a conference in the north to seek ways and means of associating the Sudanese more closely with the government of their country. As you know, there has been in the northern Sudan for the last three years, an advisory Council, and one of the recommendations made by the conference is to develop the Advisory Council into a more authoritative and responsible body, with the power of making laws and to some extent, of controlling the work of the administration.
The Advisory Council has not had power to concern itself with the two Southern Provinces of Equatoria and Upper Nile and there are therefore no Southern Sudanese in the Advisory Council. The report of the conference however, which has just been published, recommends that the Southern Sudan should send representatives to the new Assembly which it has proposed should be set up, and in paragraphs 12 and 13 of this report you will find its recommendations and the reasons for them.
The reasons are important; the main consideration is that the Sudan, though a vast country in area is small in wealth and population, and if the Sudan is ever really to become self-governing and self-dependent it must not be divided up into small and weak units. Those who prepared the report believe that the sooner Southern and Northern Sudanese come together and work together, the sooner they will coalesce and cooperate in the advancement of their country. The belief is sincerely and genuinely held by many Northern Sudanese, and they hope that by including Southern Sudanese in the future Assembly, the process of unification will be hastened. I am confident that their recommendations are based on the very highest motives, and think they do not seek opportunities to exploit backward tribes in the South.
The conference in Khartoum did not include Southern representatives, but I invited the Governors of Equatoria and Upper Nile to attend in order that they should know what was being proposed, and should be able to inform the conference of conditions and feelings in the South. This they did.
Now that the report of the conference has been submitted to the Sudan Government and action on it is expected, I have summoned this meeting here of men both from the North and the South, in order to consider the unification of the two parts of the country. I should explain to you the present government policy in regard to the South.

The policy was defined in 1945 as follows:
It is only economic and educational development that these people can be equipped to stand up for themselves in the future, whether their lot be eventually cast with the Northern Sudan or with East Africa, or partly with each.

Since 1945 there have been developments both economically and educationally in the South, and it has begun to clear, I think, that the Southern Sudan, by its history and by the accidents of geography, river transport and so on, must turn more to the North rather than to Uganda or Congo, and I believe that our policy regarding these areas should be restated as follows:
The policy of the Sudan government regarding the Southern Sudan is to act upon the facts that the people of Southern Sudan are distinctly African and Negroid, but that geography and economics combine (so far as can be foreseen at the present time) to render them inextricably bound for future development to the Middle East and Arab of the Northern Sudan and therefore to ensure that they shall by educational and economic developments be equipped to take their places in the future as socially and economically the equals of their partners of the Northern Sudan in the Sudan of the future.
If this is the government’s policy regarding the Southern Sudan I should like the views of this meeting on one or two points of immediate importance.
You have all received copies of a Memorandum giving the terms of reference of this meeting and I think have already had opportunity to discuss them and form opinions.

Memorandum:
The Sudan Administration Conference in paragraph 12 and 13 of its report dealing with the future closer association of the Sudanese with the central government has made certain recommendations about which I shall have to advise His Excellency the Governor General, I have decided to hold a meeting in the Southern Sudan at which I wish to discuss the proposals with Southern Sudanese and officials, who have Southern experience, both British and Sudanese. I have therefore arranged for a meeting to be held at Juba on June11, 1947 at which I hope representatives from Equatoria and the Upper Nile provinces will attend.
The terms of reference of the meeting will be:
1-to consider the recommendations of the Sudan Administration Conference about the Southern Sudan;
2-to discuss the availability of the Southern Sudanese being represented in the proposed assembly and if it is to be advisable to decide how such representation can best be obtained in the present circumstances; and whether the representation proposed by the Sudan Administration is suitable;
3-to discuss whether safeguards can be introduced into the forthcoming legislation setting up the new Assembly, to ensure that the Southern Sudan with its differences in race, tradition, language, customs and outlook is not hindered in its social and political advancement;
4-to discuss whether or not an Advisory Council for the South Sudan should be set up to deal with Southern affairs from which representatives might be appointed to sit on the assembly, as representatives of the Southern Sudan;
5-To consider the recommendations of the Sudan Administration Conference in paragraph 13 of their report which deals with matters not strictly relevant to the political development of the Sudan, which the conference recommended as essential if the unification of the Sudanese is to be achieved.


After consultation among themselves Chief Ukuma Bazia laid before the meeting a set of written answers to the Civil Secretary’s Memorandum, they were as follow;
2- No, but to send people who will sit and merely study.
3- To leave the matter of race tradition; language customs and outlook die by itself, through education and civilization. More safeguards to be added.
4- We agree to set up our Advisory Council in the South but in link with the North. Before passing laws for the whole country the legislative council in the north should consult the Advisory Council here until such time when the South will be capable to send representatives to voice for itself. Since we consented in para.2 we also welcome people from the North to attend our meetings and advise us. People to be send should be of legal respect.
5- Permits to trade order 1928 to be canceled on the following conditions:
i.Only the people with good capitals should be allowed.
ii.That these capitalists should build their shops in red bricks and corrugated iron sheets in places permitted by this council.
iii.That Southern Sudanese should be encouraged to trade and the only way of doing that is by employing agents from the South.
5a. One educational policy to be adopted for North and South.
The teaching of language should be in bush schools English and Arabic in elementary to high schools.
5b. The improvement of communications between the two parts of the, encouragement of transfers, the unification of the system of establishment should be the same and should be started now.


Judge Mohamed Saleh al-Shingeiti then interfered, referring to answer No.2 he asked if the Southerners could explain why the South should be unable to send representatives to the central legislative assembly just as other outlaying tribes and areas of the North, for instance the Beja, the Kababish, etc. if the Southerners were going to attend the assembly why should they not take part in it, and speak for their own people? Since the more distant tribes of the Northern Sudan were to be represented in the proposed assembly why not the South?
Mr. Kamyungi Ababa replied that Southerners were like recruits compared with old soldiers and Southerners wanted more training before they could take part in an assembly with Northerners. The other tribes which the last speaker mentioned had already had some experience in the Advisory Council which Southerners had not had. They did not wish to close the door to Southern representation in the Legislative Assembly, but the time was not yet ripe.
The Chairman referred the meeting to the essential question whether the South be united with the North or otherwise.
Mr. James Tembura said that education had not advanced far enough in the South to allow for full representations.
Judge Mohamed Saleh al-Shingeiti returned to the point that many of Northern tribes were as backward as anyone in the South and had not previously had Councils of their own. We suggested that there should be a province Council in each of the Southern provinces which should have representatives.
Chief Ukuma Bazia asked why the South had not been included in the Advisory Council.
Mr. Kingdon said that Sir Douglas Newbold had answered that question at the time when the Advisory Council was first started. He said Southerners had not reached a standard of education which would enable them to represent their compatriots in such a Council.
Chief Ukuma Bazia asked if, when Sir Douglas Newbold gave this explanation, the Northern Sudanese were satisfied with it.
Judge Mohd. Saleh al-Shingeiti replid emphatically that Northern Sudanese were not satisfied.
Sgt. Major Philemon Majok Kuong stated that Southerners were like children in their relation to a grown-up Northerners and that, as children must drink milk before they eat “Kisra”, so the Southerners must first study self-government before participating in governing.
Chief Chier Rehan said that the South was distinct from the North. If he went to the North, would the Northerners listen to his words as the representative of the Southern people?
Judge Mohd. S. al-Shingeiti said they would.
Chief Chier Rehan replied that Southerners should go on learning under their British Administrators and in due course they would acquire understanding.
Judge Mohd. S. al-Shingeiti said that he was understanding them now and that if they came to the North then the Northerners and the Southerners would have opportunity of understanding each other even better.
Chief Chier Rehan was still dissatisfied and said that Southerners must have training in Councils before they could represent their people.
Dr. Habib Abdulla remarked that in his opinion all the Southerners present were labouring under the misconception that all Northerners have great training and experience in the matters of government. The difference between Southerners and Notherners was much less than they thought, in fact it was negligible. The Southerners should be afraid of being at disadvantage vis a vis the Northerners in matters of self-government.
Sgt. Major Philemon Admitted that it was in fact what he was afraid of, and could not see why the Northerners should not simply invite them north to enable them first of all to observe the procedure. He added that the Southerners could not ignore past history.
Mr. Hassan Fartak, replying to Judge Shingeiti, said that every thing had to have a beginning. The North had its Advisory Council for four years and was now ready for the next steps, the Legislative Assembly. They were like pupils who had been through class 1 and now were going to class 2. The South had not been through class 1 yet, and it would be absurd to put them straight to class 2.
Judge Mohd. S. al-Shingeiti explained that members of the Advisory Council had not all been at the same stage, some were more advanced than others and the less advanced has learnt a lot from the more advanced.
Mr. Hassan Fartak pointed out that the less advanced had at any rate many contacts and much in common with the more advanced members.
Judge Shingeiti drew attention to the fact that the Conference in which they were engaged was very similar to a meeting of the Advisory Council, and if Southerners could speak for themselves in this Conference why should they not do the same in a legislative assembly?
Mr. Marwood stressed the difference between an advisory council a legislative assembly which would have powers to make laws and would have some control over the administration. Judge Shingeiti had not yet given any convincing reason why the first step of an advisory council which had been found necessary in the North should not be equally necessary in the South.
Shiekh Serur Mohd. Remli wished to return to the basic point of whether the Sudan was to be a single united nation. Before details of representation were discussed it was necessary to have that point settled.
Mr. Marwood nominated a speaker to reply but objection was taken to this by Judge Shingeiti who said that if any body wanted to speak they should do so without prompting from the Governor.
The Chairman asked whether any body present had any objections to the unity of the Sudan.
Judge Shingeiti complained that this was outside the meeting’s terms of reference but the Civil Secretary refused to admit this. The Civil Secretary again addressed the meeting and said that if nobody spoke on this subject, then they would assume agreement on the principle of the unity of the Sudan.
Chief Lapponya stated that the principle of unity could only be decided later when the Southerners were grown up, by which time they would be in a position to decide whether to joint the North or go to the Belgian Congo or Uganda.
The Chairman said people could not get up and go where they like just like that.
Mr. Owen addressed the Northern Sudanese present and explained that they were still suffering from the sins of Zubeir Pasha and the slavers. ‘The sins of the Fathers shall be visited upon their children even unto the third and the fourth generation’. He said that South had not forgotten the days of oppression even if the North had done so, and even today the Southerners view was dominated by fear and suspicion. He concluded that the southerners would never willingly join the North until the later should prove by their acts, not words, that they had undergone a change of heart.
Judge Shingeiti stressed that Northerners had no desire to dominate the South. They maintained that the country was one and the policy of this country was made in Khartoum, so the Northerners wanted the Southerners to join with them in the formation of policy for the whole country. Mr. Owen had referred to the slave trade…but he felt bound to point out that the British had in their time been the biggest slave traders in history. The West Indies were populated by Africans who had been enslaved in the past by the British, but with the growth of public opinion the British had come to realize the evils of the slave trade. What had happened in England had now happened in the Northern Sudan where it was fully realized that slavery was barbaric and harmful. It has happened that, under this government, slaves had been introduced into the Sudan from Abyssinia. He had himself been a Sub-Mamur in the White Nile at that time and had personally taken part in the freeing of the slaves. This trade had been discovered by the vigilance of Sudanese Officials. Northerners had no evil intentions towards the South. If they had they would not have been prepared to put up the money for the Zande Scheme.
Chief Lapponya said that when the British and Northerners had first come to their country in 1914 the Northerners had despised and insulted Southerners. Southerners were also envious of the Northerners because they were paid at higher rates.
Chief Giir Kerou said that the Sudan was a single country but also said that this was the first time they had ever taken part in a conference of this kind how could they be expected to send representatives to an assembly in Khartoum. The northerners were their elder brothers and were inviting them [their younger brothers] to swim across the river with the Northerners.
Chief Chier Rehan said that he and Chief Giir Kero were answerable to their people and must speak for them. At the Gogrial and Tonj councils their people had said they have no objection to live as brothers with the Northerners but they wanted first to wait and learn before joining them. That is what he and Chief Giir Kero were saying now.
Judge Shingeiti said that the Southerners could best learn in the course of work they would do in the province and district councils.
The Chairman summed up at this point and said that so far the discussion boiled down to two facts. Firstly, that most of Southerners present [Shingreiti ‘all of them’] were agreed that the Sudan was one country. Secondly, that the Southerners were not yet advanced enough to take part in the legislative assembly but would in their opinion be able to participate after a period of educational training in Southern Councils.

The meeting then adjourned for 15 minutes.

After that the Chairman referred to note 2 of Chief Ukuma Bazia written positions which says “No, but to send people who will sit and merely study”.
If it was proposed to send people to the legislative assembly as learners, how many would they wish to send and how would they be chosen? The administration conference had recommended that there should be 15 representatives from the South.
Chief Ukuma Bazia said that this point had not been discussed as they did not know that this suggestion would be accepted. They would certainly wish to select them themselves rather than that they should be appointed by the government.
Siricio Iro said that they would wish at first to send large number, probably more than the number suggested.
Mr. Kingdon asked language or languages would be used in the Legislative Assembly. If there were too many it would cause serious delay in the proceeding.
Judge Shingeiti said that the proceeding would be in English and Arabic, but there would be no difficulty in having them translated into the language of any member who did not understand either of these.
Mr. Kingdon pointed out that the absence of large number of the leading personalities for prolonged periods would cause a serious delay in the advance of the local government.
Judge Shingeiti said that the government of the people must be representative and that the foundation of representative government lay in the towns, ruler districts, and province councils. Thus he considered that in the South there should be town councils in places like Juba, Wau and ruler councils in Districts, and province councils formed from the leaders of the towns and ruler councils. This he considered could be achieved in one year
in the South. Some three or four representatives of the Legislative Assembly could be chosen from the province councils. The province governor could nominate others, being guided only by the interests of the province. In due course these nominated members to the Lagislative Assembly would be replaced by members selected or elected by the province council, which in the normal course of its deliberations would automatically affect the necessary training and education of its members. All this had already taken place in the North, and he saw no reason why the same should not happened in the South.
Clement Mboro asked what would happen if the Lagislative Assembly were to meet before these province councils are set up.
The Chairman pointed out that it was hoped that the Legislative Assembly would be set up fairly soon, but there might be some delay.
Judge Shingeiti presumed that governors would nominate representatives in that case, but said that Southern representation was essential or the North would have every thing in its own way.
Clement Mboro said that more than 13 should be send from the South, even though they will not take part in the debates, in order to study the art of government.
Judge Shingriti replied that the place to learn the art of government was the local government.
Clement Mboro pleaded that for patience till Southerners were sufficiently advanced to play their part in the Legislative Assembly.
Judge Shingeiti said that the North could not wait until the South got up. If Southerners could take part in the Advisory Councils they could take part in a legislative assembly.
Clement Mboro again stressed the essential difference between an advisory council and a legislative assembly. The number of representatives to be sent to the North should be more than 13. When asked by the Chairman to explain the reasons for that, he said that it would form a wider field for selection when the time comes to appoint the 13 member to the Legislative Assembly proper.
Mr. Owen asked Clement Mboro if these Southerners would go to the North to study the Legislative Assembly only, or would they have to report back to the to a Southern advisory council?
Clement Mboro replied they would have to report to a Southern Advisory Council.
Judge Shingeiti protested that the conference was useless as long as Southern Members present came with fixed ideas which they had perceived before the conference began.
The Chairman said that the conference was quite open and that what was taking place now was an elucidation of the Southerner’ reasons for the various decisions they had come to.
Judge Shingeiti repeated that the Southerners’ ideas had already been fixed and therefore the conference was fruitless.
The Chairman summed up the previous discussion as follows:
First, the Southerners had agreed to send a number of representatives to the North in order to observe the process of government, to broaden their minds, and to report back to the Southern Advisory Council.
Second, no fixed numbers had been agreed upon but more then 13 should go. He went on to ask how these representatives were to be selected.
Clement Mboro replied that the government should begin now with local councils which in due time would be able to send representatives, but in mean time the government should nominate representatives.
Dr. Habib Abdulla deprecated the separatist tendency that would be fostered by any proposals to treat the South on different footing from the North.
Father Guido Akou said that the North wanted immediate Southern representation in an assembly which would legislate for the whole Sudan. Southerners were afraid of this because they felt that through lack of understanding, their representatives might agree to laws which would prove harmful.
Edward Adhok considered that there was no one qualified in Upper Nile to represent his people in such an assembly. The Shilluk Council had not been a success so far owing to lack of experienced members. He himself felt not qualified to represent his own people or take the responsibility of committing them to laws which, owing to lack of understanding on his part, might not be for the benefit of his people.
Ibrahim Eff. Badri said that when a man thinks he is backward it is difficult to persuade him that he is not, and that the Northerners must appreciate this difficulty.
Chief Lolik Lado regretted that he was not ready for these discussions as he had not been able to consult his people before coming to Juba. He said however, a girl who has been asked to marry a young man usually wants time to hear reports of that young man from other people before consenting; likewise before coming to any fixed decisions about their relation with Northerners. The ancestors of the Northern Sudanese were not peace-loving and domesticated like cows. The younger generation claims that they mean no harm, but time would show what they would in fact do. He agreed to unification with the North but said that Southerners need protection and time to consider the matter in conference with the elders of the people. An immediate decision could not be taken now.
Sheikh Serur Mohd. Ramli thought that Southerners need have no fear of laws which interfered with their customs for they could be administered with discretion. He quoted the law against pharaonic circumcision which had been passed by the Sudan government at the request of the advisory council. This law was enforced on the express direction of the governor who took into account all the circumstances. Any law passed by the Legislative Assembly which counters to the Southern customs could doubtless make similar provision.
Chief Tete said that Northerners still despise and frequently insult Southerners. A child must be brought up gradually and Southerners musty learn to walk before they try to run.
The Chairman refereed to para 3 of the memorandum and the minutes of the preliminary meeting, and ask what safeguards the Southerners had in mind.
Chief Ukuma Bazia instanced the customs of his people to draw their teeth and feared that Northerners who think this as a barbarous custom might try to stop it by law.
Dr. Habib Abdulla said that the best safeguard was that Southerners should be members of the legislative assembly.
Mr. Both Dheiu said that Northerners claim to have no desire to dominate the South, but this was not enough and there must be safeguards. There should be no settlement of Northerners on land in the South without permission. Secondly there must be no interference by the North in local government in the South. Thirdly there should be a law to prevent a Northerner calling a Southerner a slave.
Judge Shingeity pointed out that such an insult was in fact punishable under the panel code.
James Tembura said, on the subject of safeguards, they must ensure that Northerners who have children by Southern women must not desert them when they go back to the North.
Judge Shingeit replied that this was the government fault since the government bids this wives and children to go north.
James Tembura in reply to the Chairman asserted that he was referring to cases where Northerners were properly married to Southern women both in local customs and in the Muslim law.
Dr. Habib Abdulla said that the reason for these cases of desertion were to be found in the variety of laws governing marriage in the Sudan, and that this could be rectified by the future legislation.
The Chairman thought that further discussion on this point would not be profitable as it had little to do with the safeguards they were at present discussing.
Mr. Marwood said that one sort of safeguards he had in mind was that laws affecting the local customs could only be enforced at the discretion of the governor.
The Chairman then referred to the suggestion to set up an Advisory Council for the Southern Sudan and the minutes from the preliminary meeting on this point. In particular he asked what was meant by the expression “people of legal respect”.
Clement Mboro said that they had intended by this phrase men who had experience of local government and of the working of Councils and people who know and sympathize with Southerners.
Judge Shingeiti asked how long such an advisory council would last.
Clement Mboro said that it would be like the advisory council for the North and would last for a few years only; but that it might possibly be necessary to keep it in existence after Southern representatives had taken their places in the legislative assembly.
Hassan Eff. Ahmed Osman felt that this would mean separation of the North and the South.
The Chairman deplored the tendency to regard any suggestion that Southern problems should be treated in different manner from those in the North as a conspiracy to divide the North from the South.
Dr. Habib Abdulla thought that there would be some delay in setting up the legislative assembly and that if in the meanwhile real progress should be made with the advancement of local government and local councils, Southerners might feel that a suitable form of representation could be worked out by them in which they could have confidence.
Hassan Fartak said that a Southern Advisory Council would have the merit of providing a reserve of potential representatives to the legislative assembly.
The Chairman pointed out in reply that this could equally well be done by province councils once they started.
Sheikh Serur Mohd. Ramli said that the differences between North and South would no longer present any difficulty once local government developed in the South.

The meeting then adjourned until 9:30 a.m. on June13, 1947.

The conference reopened at 9:30 a.m. on Friday June13, 1947.
The Chairman explained that the conference was exploratory only and that no decisions were being taken. They were all there to learn each others ideas. The decisions, if any, would be taken later by the central government. He deplored the mutual suspicions which seemed to exist between the Northerners and the Southerners. The Northerners on the one hand were suspecting the Southerners of wanting to separate from the North [and the government of desiring this separation]. The Southerners on the other hand were suspecting that the Northerners wished to dominate them.
It was essential to get away from these suspicions so that they would all talk together.
Summing up the discussion of the day before the Chairman said that the following conclusion had been arrived at:
First, that the Southerners want a unified Sudan;
Secondly, they want to participate in the proposed Legislative Assembly, but that;
Thirdly they were not sufficiently advanced to do so immediately,
Fourthly, it was important to hasten the establishment and development of local government in the South,
Fifthly, that at first Southerners should attend the Legislative Assembly as observers. They should be more than 13 eventual representatives.
Questions were about the safeguards but they had been misunderstood.
Southern Spokesmen had referred to these specific hurts they wishes to be defended from rather than general method to protect them from these hurts.
The Chairman referred to paragraph 4, the Southerners answers to the questions put in his memorandum. Some reference had been made in the day before but discussion had not been completed. He personally thought that Southern Advisory Council was unnecessary, and that province councils will be adequate. In province councils there would be great opportunity for more people to meet and discuss, thereby learn the art of government. He also thought that this would be more agreeable to the North. The Chairman then invited comments on this subject.
Dr. Habib Abdulla referred to the differences of opinion and suspicions between the North and the South which had been mentioned by the chairman, and asked permission to go over the ground of yesterday’s debate to bring certain important points. There were essential which must be agreed before other matters could be discussed. Firstly, the Sudan is one country because of geographical conditions. Secondly, there was no reason why laws made for the whole Sudan should be harmful to one part of it. There were two kinds of laws, laws which protect person and property which were welcome to every body, and laws relating to taxation, etc., which nobody liked. Reference had been frequently made to political backwardness of Southerners. This was purely a relative matter. There are some 200 tribes in the Sudan, each with its own customs and traditions. There were all of the same economic standard for they were all poor and in need of economic advancement.
Religion might defer, but each had his own. There was no reason to say that any one section was more backward than another. It is true that some Southerners went naked, but some Northerners never washed. No one wished to upset the government. The government wished to teach the Sudanese to themselves and told them they could not do so without taking responsibility. Finally, he wished to know why Southerners had asked for an Advisory Council for the South.
The Chairman said this had been answered in the previous day when the Southerners had said that the North had had practice in an Advisory Council for four years, and that a baby had to drink milk before it could eat “Kisra”. This appeared to be a full answer to the question. The point now before the meeting was whether there should not be province councils instead of a single advisory council.
Siricio Iro said that province councils would be a good thing and that Southern Members to the Legislative Assembly could be drawn later from these councils. There was no wander or mystery about these councils. It was a matter of common sense and the councils would be comparable to the present Chief’s courts. The experience gained in these councils would assist Southerners in their deliberation with the Northerners.
Kamyangi Ababa referred to the difference between Northerner and Southerner rates of pay for work which was, in fact, the same, and to the reasons given for this by his District Commissioner, that is to say, lack of education in the South, and lower rates of taxation in the South. He also referred to the higher standard of housing enjoyed by the Northern Officials and concluded that although they were the sons of one father it seemed to him that father was treating his brother better than himself.
Clement Mboro stated that since the conference of the day before he had fundamentally changed his mind and now considered that the best way in which Southerners could protect themselves would be to go to Khartoum now to legislate together with the Northerners. Any council formed in the South would be defenseless before the Legislative Assembly. An Advisory Council was advisory only and its advice could be easily rejected by the Legislative Assembly or similar body. It was best for the Southerners to go and Legislate now in spite of their backwardness; since the Southerners could speak for themselves in the present conference there was no reason why they could not speak for themselves in a legislative assembly. If any law was proposed which would not be agreeable to the South they could stand up and object. The Southerners must defend themselves and speak and think for themselves.
Mr. Owen asked Clement Mboro what his safeguards would be if in spite of the Southern objections in the legislative assembly a law was passed which was against the interests of the Southerners.
Clement Mboro replied that the government would protect them.
Judge Shingeiti protested against Mr. Owen’s question. His protest was overruled.
Clement Mboro went on to say that if the government could not protect them there must be rules and legislation in the Legislative Assembly which would do so. Mean time the government must press on without delay with the establishment of province, District, and town councils in the South.
Chief Chier Rehan said that in their country they had originally been given courts, and when they had learnt to use them, the government had set up a council of about 40 men with 3 officials who were responsible for the work of the court, and for the chest. They had found this very different from the court work and had it not been for the help of the DC they could not have made it work at all. They had found this conference different again. When they discussed among themselves the first day they took 5 hours to reach their decisions. He is certain that Northerners would have completed the business in one hour [laughter]. What they have said yesterday was not their opinion only but that of their people. They had agreed to join the North in a government for the whole Sudan only if they were given time. Was he to go back and tell his people that Northerners insisted on their coming in at once or not at all? He did not feel that it showed a brotherly feeling to try to force them.
James Tembura said that he agreed emphatically with what Clement Mboro had said to immediate representation in the Legislative Assembly.
The Chairman asked him why he had changed his mind since the previous day.
James Tembura replied that Judge Shingeiti had said that if they did not do so they would have no say in the future government of the Sudan, and he had thought this over very carefully the previous night after considering what had been said during the day.
Chief Tete said that he wanted to study in the South until he was clever enough to go to the North. One could not begin to do work which one did not understand.
Sgt. Major Philemon Majok Kuong said that they were speaking on behalf of their people and that they, as spokesmen, could see more clearly than the people. He thought that if Southerners adopted a “go slow” policy now they would never reach the required level. The Southerners could speak their mind in a legislative assembly just as a Chief could speak to Chief’s court or as a major court member could speak to DC presiding. In legislative assembly there would be somebody to defend and guide them. In spite of his statement the day before he now thought that there was no danger in sending Southerners to the North to join in the legislative assembly as soon as it was formed.
Chief Lolik Lado said that the day before they had spoken for their people and could not change their words today. The Southerners wanted to send representatives to the North but so far they had found nobody to send. The government would later select the right people to go and speak on their behalf.
Chief Lapponya thought that if representatives were to be sent to Legislative Assembly they should have had previous experience in councils of their own. It was impossible to send untrained recruits into battle. When the governor thought that they were sufficiently trained he would send them into the firing line.
Hassan Fartak said that they were all, or nearly all, agreed that the Sudan was one country and that was the most important decision that had to be made. They were also agreed that province councils should be formed. He wanted to know when the legislative assembly was likely to be set up.
The Chairman said they hoped it will be very soon but he could not say the exact time.
Haasn Fartak could not see any reason why their representatives should not, for the time being, watch the proceedings in order to learn, without being full voting members.
The Chairman said that there seemed to have been a changed of mind among some of the Southern members but that the discussion had been a useful one. He would like to return to a question he had asked in the beginning of the session. Did they wish to have an Advisory Council for the South or a province council for each province? From what had been said, it appeared that they favoured province councils, and that these councils should send representatives to the legislative assembly. There was some difference of opinion whether these representatives should be full voting members from the start, or whether they should first watch the proceedings until they had some experience of procedure.
Both Dhieu thought the Southerners should send representatives to the North only to study but participate in legislation, finance, and administration. He referred to para 2 of the Civil Secretary Memorandum, and said that the best way of representing the South would be to send people who had been attached to outstation for three or four years, and also those who had served a long time with the government. The government could appoint the best representatives. Four representatives would be enough from Upper Nile province. Of the 10 members to be nominated by the Governor General, 2 could be from Upper Nile province. An Advisory Council for the South would be the first step towards separation. It was much better to have province councils.
Laws made by the legislative assembly should not be enforced without the consent of the governor or the Governor General.
The Chairman explained that in any case according to the report of the administration conference all laws made by the legislative assembly would be referred to the governor general for his comments.
Chief Luoth Ajak agreed with Both Dheiu.

The meeting was adjourned for 15 minutes.

When the meeting reopened the Chairman referred to the members to Para. 5 of his memorandum, and said that some of the subject matter therein had already been discussed by the Southerners at their own meeting held prior to the opening of the present conference. With regard to permits to trade, the southerners had expressed their opinion in para.5, sub-para.1, 2 and 3. The council referred in para.5, sub-para.2 was presumably a local council, District or province.
Sheikh Serur Mohd. Ramli said that if the conditions stipulated by the Southerners were necessary it would be matter for the local government to decide.
The Chairman asked if the conditions laid down by the Southerners had reference to Northerner Traders only or to all non- Southerner Traders.
Chief Ukuma Bazia and others replied that they referred to all non-Southern Traders.
Judge Shingeiti explained that the licensing authority would probably be the local council who would the power to attach what conditions they liked to the license. It was not necessary to define these conditions now. If the local councils were given adequate power the conditions attached to trader’s license could safely be to them.
The Chairman asked Judge Shingeiti if he was speaking on behalf of the Legal Secretary or for himself only.
Judge Shingeiti replied he was speaking for himself alone.
The Chairman explained that his reason for the question was that the legal secretary adhered firmly to view that licenses should be brought to the center [Merkaz] and that there should be no restrictions.
Mr. Marwood pointed out that the local authorities were not, in law, the issuing authority for trader’s license. If Judge Shingeiti’s proposal to hand over this authority to local governments and enable them to impose what conditions they liked were adopted, it would presumably apply in the North as well as in the South.
Judge Shingeit said that in the North there is no restrictions [apart from certain temporary resulting from the war] attached to the issue of trader’s license. It was opened to the conference, however, to recommend that local authorities be empowered to make such restrictions.
The Chairman explained that in the South there were two licenses which a non-Southern trader had to take out. One was the ordinary trader’s license without restrictions, and the other a special license under the permits to trade order. The reason for this was that in the past many Gallaba with little capital and tendency to exploit the unsophisticated came to the South and the permits to trade order was brought in to protect the tribesmen from this type of traders. If the permit to trade order was to be canceled, how was the South to be protected from possible influx of such traders?
Both Dhieu said that at the preliminary meeting they had decided to recommend that the permit to trade order be cancelled under certain conditions. The reason for this was that the Sudan administration conference had felt strongly that the permit to trade order was a hindrance to the unification of the Sudan. The majority at the meeting was against the cancellation of this order, but the minority had persuaded the majority to agree, provided that certain conditions were laid down.
Chief Luoth Ajak emphasized the fear of the Southerners that a crowd of hungry Gallaba would invade the South and swamp them and cheat the people.
James Tembura said the feeling at the preliminary meeting was that rich traders from the North and elsewhere should be restricted to the big towns, leaving the bush shops for Southerners who wished to learn shop-keeping.
Mr. Owen asked James Tembura if he thought there were enough Southerners who wanted to open bush shops, as in his experience there were disappointingly few who wished to do so.
James Tembura replied that he thought there were enough Southerners.
Chief Lolik Lado was sure that many Southerners wanted to open shops.
Chief Tete agreed and added that many ex-soldiers wanted to open shops with their gratuities.
The Chairman thought that what the Southerners wanted was a safeguard that Northerners should come and open shops in the villages but that village shop should be reserved for Southerners. He asked Judge Shingeiti if the legal secretary would agree to that.
Judge Shingeiti thought he would.
The Chairman thought there was a little difference between this and the old permit to trade order.
Hassan Eff. Ahmed Osman thought that the difference lay in: that although local authorities should have power to refuse a license, disappointed applicants would still have the right to appeal against there decision.
Mr. Marwood thought that the present legislation in the Sudan was deficient. A permit to trade was merely a piece of financial machinery, but there was no ordinance governing the proper conduct in trade in the Sudan. Some legislation was necessary to ensure the proper conduct of trade, and this legislation should apply to the whole Sudan. The proposed legislative assembly might consider this in due course.
Clement Mboro explained that what the Southerners had intended was that adequate opportunity should be left to the Southerner to become a trader.
Judge Shingeiti explained Mr. Marwood’s point that before conditions could be attachedto the issue of a trader’s license a law must be enacted to that effect.
The Chairman said this seemed to imply a permit to trade order for the whole Sudan in fact [laughter].
Chief Ukuma Bazia said that the 1928 Permit to Trade Order should remain until they heard what the legislative assembly had to say about it.
Hassan Eff. Ahmed thought there was no basic difference of opinion between Northerners and Southerners with regard to the need for protecting villagers against adventurers of whatever nationality.
The Chairman considered that that was what the permit to trade order was, in effect, doing at present. There was a good deal of muddled thinking about this order in the North.
Judge Shingeiti agreed that this may be so, but explained that the Northerners considered the permit to trade order were being applied in such a way to hinder economic development in the South. The best remedy lay in ensuring that disappointed applicants should have right of appeal to a court of justice.
Mr. Marwood said that there was a misconception that his office was full of rejected applications to trade. Up to very recently he had received no application from people outside the province. In the past these 3 or 4 months only one or two had come in. in one of these cases he had asked the trader to where he wanted to trade, and what capital he had to build shops and buy lorries for transport etc. he awaited his reply. The permit to trade order had been interpreted exactly as this meeting would have liked it to be interpreted. Small traders with capitals of only 10 pounds or so were not wanted. Responsible traders with capitals are wanted. The last thing he wanted to do was to hinder economic development.
The Chairman summed up and thought they were all agreed that it was necessary to improve trade and that merchants with capital were wanted to improve and develop the country, and that people should be protected against adventurers and exploiters. He thought that the Southerners wanted to stress that there should be enough places left in the villages to give Southerners the opportunity to set up as traders in due course build bigger business of their own. When they returned to Khartoum they would consider the recommendations of this meeting.
The next point for discussion was the unification of the educational policy in the North and in the South, and the teaching of Arabic.
Mr. Owen asked the clarification of the phrase “one educational policy”.
Mr. Kingdon thought the reply to this question by the preliminary meeting of the Southerners in their minutes 5a was self contradictory.
Hassan Eff. Ahmed thought that this means merely that the curricula in Northern and Southern schools should be the same. He did not find any contradiction in the recommendation that education in bush school should be in vernacular and that Arabic and English should be taught in elementary schools.
James Tembura said that the Southerners felt strongly that a boy should first learn to read and write his own language and could later go on to other languages.
Judge Shingeiti felt that it should be left to educationalist to say if a boy could learn two foreign languages in the elementary school.
The Chairman pointed out the essential difference in practice between North and South was that in the North a boy learnt in Arabic to the end of the elementary school and did not start to learn a foreign language before then.
The meeting felt that a boy should be taught Arabic as soon as he is able to do so, but the case should be left to educationalists to decide when this stage was reached.
Pastor Andrea Apaya asked if the introduction of Arabic would apply to mission schools.
The Chairman said that this was the general opinion of the meeting.
Dr. Habib Abdulla said that southerners were still thinking of education in terms of preparation for government service, an idea still held by many Northerners, and he said that the reasons Southerners were so anxious for the same education as the Northerners was to strengthen their claim to receive the same rates of pay as the Northerners.
The Chairman referred to the great shortage of teachers in the North and doubted if Northerners would be prepared to restrict their educational expansion to send Arabic teachers to the South.
Judge Shingeiti said that the available teachers should be equally distributed between the North and the South, and even more generously to the South to help them catch up. If the Northerners were not willing to do this they should not claim the Sudan was one country.
Both Dhieu said that there must be no delay in the introduction of Arabic to schools to enable them to catch up with the North. Chief Lolik Lado thought that there might be some difficulties cause by the introduction of Arabic. He had found that Catholics and Protestants did not readily cooperate, and feared that this would be a new complication.
Pastor Andrea Apaya said that both English and Arabic languages and doubted if boys at elementary stage could assimilate both. He was not against the introduction of Arabic, and in fact welcomed it, but doubted if it was feasible at that stage.
The Chairman felt that it must be left to the Director of Education to say at what stage a pupil could start learning a second foreign language.
Father Guido Akou asked for an explanation of the phrase ‘single educational policy’.
Judge Shingeiti said it meant firstly that the standard of #####alent schools should be roughly equal, and secondly that a boy leaving a Southern intermediate school should be able to go straight to a Northern Secondary School. In addition pupils of the country should have a similar of outlook.
Father Guido asked if this unification of policy was to be implemented at once.
The Chairman said there was a misunderstanding in the use of this phrase, in that the bush schools corresponded to sub Grade schools in the North, elementary school in both areas were on the same footing, and so were Intermediate school, and from this point of view education policy was in fact the same in the North and the South.
Mr. Marwood said that for the last ten years the education Department had been exercising more and more supervision in the Mission Schools and inspector had devoted much time and energy to working with mission schools authorities to ensure that curricula and standards should approach those of the North as closely and quickly as possible.
Hassan Eff. Ahmed was grateful to Mr. Marwood for dispelling much of the misunderstanding which existed on the question of unified education. He thought it not irrelevant to request that the sending of Southern boys to Uganda should be discontinued.
The medium of instruction in the North is English in higher and secondary education, and Arabic was studied only as a subject. Southern boys should therefore go north for higher and secondary education.
The Chairman said that sending boys to Uganda was a temporary expedient since schools in the North were too full to take them. In due course there would be a secondary school for the South and Southerners would go to Gordon College for higher education.
The Chairman then raised the question of improvement of communications.
The meeting was generally in favour of improvement of communications between the North and the South.
The Chairman went to consider the question of transfer of officials, and said that this could be best discussed in a small committee with the Director of establishment as it did not concern all the members present.
Mr. Marwood said the Chiefs were concerned in so far as the proposed local councils would require educated stuff and must find money to pay this staff. In the North I believe that at the present most local councils employed second government officials on government rates of pay, but that the time will come when the council would employ staff independently of the government. In the South the local councils would have to decide how much they could afford to pay for their staff, and choose between a highly paid government official and a local boy requiring lesser remuneration.
The Chairman wanted to know what the Southerners meant by the term ‘encouragement of transfer’. A transfer was a transfer and brooked no discussion.
He referred to instances where some Northerners attempted to evade service in the South on Medical grounds.
Judge Shingeiti admitted that such instances had occurred, but said that most Northerners who came to the South wanted to stay on there.
Both Dhiew thought that the Notherners were unwilling to come to the South not only because they were afraid of losing their children through Malaria, but also because they were afraid of loins. He suggested that better housing would remove this unwillingness. The Southerners on the other hand were unwilling to go north because of extensive use of Arabic in offices.
Clement Mboro referred to Para. 5b of the minutes of the Southern preliminary meeting, and said he wished to stress how strongly they adhered to the unification of the system of establishment. This must be decided in this conference and not in a separate committee. Refusal to unify the establishments was in his opinion the greatest obstacle in the way of a unified Sudan.
The Chairman considered that it was not easy to discuss such an intricate matter in this conference. He noted the Southerners view but said that the small committee was best fitted to discuss the matter in details.
Judge Shingeiti asked if they could not agree on the broad lines.
The Chairman replied that the Southerners present were already agreed on the broad lines.
The Chairman in closing the conference thanked the members for coming and felt that the deliberations has been of considerable value to Southerners, to Northerners, and to the government. He could not promise that every suggestion would be carried out, nor when it could be carried out, but he thanked them for their advise and recommendations which were of definitive value.
Mr. Marwood said that this was the first opportunity that Southerners had had to come together from all over the provinces to discuss the things. He himself had felt, after the report of the Sudan Administration Conference that it was essential that Northerners and members of the central government should hear from their own lips what Southerners felt about these proposals. He was very grateful to the Civil Secretary and the other members who had come from the North for affording them this opportunity.
Judge Shingeiti on behalf of the Northerners thanked the Civil Secretary and the two Governors. The Civil Secretary as chairman had given everyone complete freedom to speak his mind. This was the essential feature of such a conference. He thanked Mr. Marwood for giving them this opportunity to meet with Southerners and here there views.
He had been much impressed with what the Southerners had said and the way they had said it, and wished them then every success in their local councils so that they be able to send representatives to take a full part in the government of the Sudan.

The end of the Document