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مكتبة منى عوض خوجلى(Muna Khugali)
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Polygamy in Sudan

12-23-2004, 00:29 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Polygamy in Sudan

    Dear ALL,

    Dear colleages,
    In one of the recent posts of Mohamed Sabeil, the following sentence came confident in his argumen

    بالمناسبة انا اريد ان اتزوج ثانية فعلا وزوجتي ترحب

    رغمو انني ما ازال احبها

    Whether he was joking or was serious, I do not know, and it is not my business, my point is about polygamy and the different sorts of marriages that are widely spread between Sudanese inside Sudan and not in the DIASPORA, what are the causes for it?

    Why do men go for polygamy, and why do many women accept it?
    can we discuss polygamy with logic, especially it has returned to be a strong
    phenomenon in northern Sudan
    Muna Khugali
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12-23-2004, 00:51 AM

قلقو
<aقلقو
تاريخ التسجيل: 05-13-2003
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    الأخت منى..
    احب ان اطمئنك (ودة بعتمد من اى زاوية انت بترى الموضوع)بأنه الشباب الذى يتزوج للمرة الثانية هو صار فى حكم الأستثناء للقاعدة لأنه القاعدة الآن صارت فى زوجة واحدة هذا اذا تزوج الشاب من اصله واستطاع ان يوفر لزوجته العيش الكريم .
    اما ناس مثنى وثلاث ورباع فهم صاروا من الأثرياء الجدد واثرياء الغفلة والزمن الردئ وزوجة الشهيد.
    بعدين شيئ مهم جدا انه الزوجات الشابات صارن يعرفن مكامن الهجوم والخطر الآتى فأصبحن يضيقن على ازواجهن من مجال الحركة والمناورة وأصبحت نضافة الجيوب تتم اولا بأول ومن المنبع .
    وما اروع نساء بلادى .
    مع تحياتى.
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12-23-2004, 01:13 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: قلقو)

    Dear Galago?
    Thanks for your contribution, according to what you said, we can say Political factor is one of the factors behind polygamy, the NIFers and their call for Jihad and marrying the wives of their killed colleagues. You are right about the new rich men getting married many times, for them marriage is enjoyment of beautiful young girls using the interpretation of religion to support their goals, and for women who marry them it could be for economic or social reasons or for many collective factors. those men although few , have made polygamy a phenomenon in Sudan, one of the anthorpologist claimed that Polygamy in the north during the 1960s, was only 1% now, we do not have statistics to polygamy, because there are different types of marriages, like Urf that is not declared.
    Reasons for polygamy are different, and causes for men to go for it .
    sometimes/most of times are different from those of women,
    We continue
    Muna
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12-23-2004, 01:21 AM

Ishraga Mustafa
<aIshraga Mustafa
تاريخ التسجيل: 09-05-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)
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12-23-2004, 02:13 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Ishraga Mustafa)

    Thanks Ishraga for being in this post. I agree with you it is sad to see men marrying just for some stupid reasons. Me and you are against polygamy, but is it the same with other women? can we understand the circumstances in which many women accept polygamy even without us agreeying to them? can I blame a woman who is in desperate need to stay in a polygamous marriage for staying a wife or for not divorcing/seeking to divorce her husband, or can I tolerate her position and try to understand it? and if I do that, do I look silly for supporting such idea by not protesting against it? or for not campaigning against it? women accept polygamy for economic, cultural and social factors, can we analyse poligamy without consideration to these factors? will it be fair? I believe Ishraqa we have to address all the socio economic and political elements and factors that make this phenomenon grow everyday, and we have to admit and understand our huge differences as Sudanese women in reacting/accepting/rejecting polygamy, although we all share the pain when it is committed against us,
    We continue
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12-23-2004, 02:11 AM

Halema2
<aHalema2
تاريخ التسجيل: 03-10-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    dear Mona
    First i would like to welcome u in this board . It is really a great pleasure to have u among us
    2e about Polygamy .. i do believe that the ones who getting married to more than one woman are the one who have the resources to do that .. I don,t think that this phenomena is v.spread in Sudan nowadys and i think that the economic situation dosn,t help to encourge men to do that.
    ?., I heard that many sudanese men getting ZAWAJ ORFE and that is also a new Zahra in Sudan
    There is a v. imprtant issue u may don,t want to mention it here and that is Moslims are allowed to marry more than one woman . So according to this argument they may come to say to u that we follow Prophet Mohmaed ( Sallah alih Waselm)
    U point that the reason is political and that they get married to the wifes of their friends .. This was happend and u are totally right .. but let us don,t call it political reasons , but it is something else .. i don,t know
    Tahnks for this tobic ( but to write it in Arabic is beter .. I use to write u now in English cause i don,t have enough time to use the arabic keyboard , but i wil come later to write in Arabic and u do please
    thanks
    Halema2
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12-23-2004, 02:35 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Halema2)

    Dear Halema 2,
    I appreciate your welcome, even if you think it is late, because it is never late. you say:
    I heard that many sudanese men getting ZAWAJ ORFE and that is also a new Zahra in Sudan
    Yes my dear, it is practiced especially among young generations, and we need to analyse that.
    You also say:
    .There is a v. imprtant issue u may don,t want to mention it here and that is Moslims are allowed to marry more than one woman . So according to this argument
    they may come to say to u that we follow Prophet Mohmaed ( Sallah alih Waselm

    On the contrary I would like very much to discuss that, and I would mainly say that those who write the laws interpret religion the way they want, the Koran verse that allows polygamy is interpreted differently in other Muslim countries, I will come sometime with the different Koran verses that people use in supporting or rejecting polygamy. Religion is a tool and interpretation to religion in Sudan is an abusive tool. hope we all discuss this, I will come later with some analysis,

    you say:
    U point that the reason is political and that they get married to the wifes of their friends .. This was happend and u are totally right .. but let us don,t call it political reasons , but it is something else .. i don,t know,

    It is political my dear, and it is one of the factors, and I can support my argument with evidents, the Jihad and the marriage to widows of victims of war, and how they were supported by the personal call made by Wisal el Mahdi wife of el Turabi early 1990s and the recent call made by Omer el Bashir for polygamy to compensate the number of people died in the war, and he went further by supporting his call with act, he married his colleagues wife. the NIF also encourages its cadres to marry each other even for the second time, it is their ideology they want to keep strong and close among them...

    I wish I could write in Arabic, I do not, I think I will need sometime till I learn it, which is very difficult for me now because of other obligations, till then please write in Arabic and allow me to write in English even if for sometime,
    Take care
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12-23-2004, 03:00 AM

قلقو
<aقلقو
تاريخ التسجيل: 05-13-2003
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Halema2)

    الأخت منى..
    انا لدى وجهة نظر مختلفة حول النسبة المئوية لتعدد الزوجات فى الستينات ,ففى رأيئ المتواضع ان تلك النسبة يجب ان تكون اكثر من ال 1 % بكثير..ومع ازدياد الوعى لدى الفرد السودانى تتناقص تلك النسبة مثلها مثل جريمتى الخفاض الفرعونى والشلوخ وباقى العادات الضارة..الا انه ولما يجده بعض الرجال من تبرير دينى صريح للتعدد فقد يمر بعض الوقت قبل ان تنزوى وتضمحل مسألة التعدد هذى..
    اما عن الزواج العرفى الذى شاع بين شبابنا هذه الأيام فهذا يرجع من الأساس لتنشئتنا الخطأ اولادا كنا ام بناتا, فكل ما يتعلق بالجنس الآخر هو من التابوهات والمحرمات وبالتالى ننشأ نحن ولا ندرى عن الجنس الاخر كثير شيئ..ومع ازدياد التمدين والأختلاط فى العمل او الجامعات فوجئنا ببعضنا البعض واخذ كل منا يستكشف الآخر وهو غير مصدق بأننا يمكن ان نخاطب احدنا الآخر ويمكننا ان نقيم علاقات ببعضنا البعض بعيدا عن يابت عيب وياولد لأ..ونتيجة لهذا الأندهاش يسرح البعض قليلا فى هذه العلاقة(والجديد شديد كما يقال )..ولكن مع مرور الأيام سوف يعتاد الشباب على رؤية الآخر وهى الأخرى سوف تندثر,وسوف تستمر العلاقات الجادة المثمرة.وهذه سنة الحياة.
    مع تحياتى
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12-23-2004, 05:17 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: قلقو)

    Dear Galago,
    The correct percentage as brought in Lobban book of 1978 was .01% and this meant it was very small percentage, she related that to the stability of the sudanese economy during the 1960s, we may agree or differ on the causes and the percentages. But polygamy now, although we do not have statistics about it is widely practiced some of the causes are related to economic needs. In the case you mentioned yes, wrong understanding to religion, and the ethics people set for themselves and force it on others are also pushing factors to be in a polygomous marriage. For example some girls are married to young male in Urf marriage, because they cannot afford to marry at their age as Sunna requires,and also because of what you mentioned in your contribution, I mean the taboos that prevent boys and girls from having healthy open relationship based on friendship.
    I agree with you that harmful traditions will disappear by time, elshilouk and female circumcision are customs, and cultural practices, I do not see polygamy on the same level with them, simply because it is strongly supported by certain interpretation to religion and because political power through history of Sudan supported it when they did not address the personal matters laws and it seems they will continue to do that for long time. have a look to the Sudanese constitution and its article on marriage, divorce you will find the law supporting polygamy. Look at Asmara declaration of 1995 of al Tajamu and its article 5 which was written on women. I can also see polygamy as one economic interprise for many women, beside it also fulfill their different needs, mostly economic and social ones .
    We continue take care,
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12-23-2004, 08:17 AM

أحمد الشايقي
<aأحمد الشايقي
تاريخ التسجيل: 08-08-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear Muna

    this is a very fruitful discussion you are launchibng here , so thanks for your good ideas.
    Second, so many factors are playing the role of ignition to this very sad end of the marriage organization in Sudan.

    But, I still think that wherever a case of polygamy is ahead , the wife should bear her part of responsiblity for it.

    Negligence, bad habbits, weak adherence to relationship and family interference are all basic grounds for such a miserable end.

    thanks

    Ahmed

    (عدل بواسطة أحمد الشايقي on 12-23-2004, 08:18 AM)

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12-23-2004, 03:18 PM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: أحمد الشايقي)

    Dear Ahmed,
    Great to have you with us here. I agree with what you described as causes for marriage failure, sometimes the failure of marriage that pushes some men for polygamy is caused by the the woman, but don't you think if couples are properly communicating toghether and sharing the burden of life with good understanding to each other, then they could avoid such situation? the problem in Sudan, remains in most of the times in the fact that people marry to satisfy others more than satisfying themselves, there are lots of pressure put on people when they want to marry and this affects the choice of marriage and also its future. Beside many of the married sudanese lead seperate life, although they remain married to satisfy the society. Tomorrow in shaa'Alla I will discuss the causes for women to accept polygamy, and try to give explanation to polygamy and its history in Islam.
    hope to see you again
    Muna
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12-23-2004, 06:47 PM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    سلامات العزيزة منى

    شكرا لطرق هذا الموضوع , و اود ان اضيف بعض النقاط التى اعتقد انها من الاهميه بمكان لمناقشه هذا الموضوع بتسلسل منطقى و بعيدا من ازدواجيه المعايير التى ارى انها لب المشكله التى تواجه الطرح المنطقى لهذا الموضوع.
    اولا : من الناحيه الشرعيه لا مانع من تعدد الزوجات اذا توفر شرط العدل "ارى انه ليس من السهل تحقيق هذا الشرط"
    ثانيا: من الناحيه الاجتماعيه , هناك ضرورة لتعدد الزوجات نسبه للفارق العددى بين نسبه الذكور و الاناث, و بمقايس عالميه نجد ان النسبه حتى عام 1996 2.73: 1 و هذه احدى افرازات الحروب العالميه التى نعانى من اثارها حتى الان.
    الا اننى ارى هنالك تباين واضح فى الاسباب التى تدعوا لتعدد الزوجات, فالبعض يرى و على حسب معتقده انها سنه و يجب المضى على اثرها, و البعض يرى و على حسب معتقده ايضا انها توافق وصيه الرسول "صلى الله عليه و سلم "تناسلوا تكاثروا فانى مباهى بكم الامم يوم القيامه" , و هناك من ليس له معتقد دينى فى هذه النقطة الا انه يرى تعدد الزوجات مظهر من مظاهر الترف و الابهه, و البعض له اسبابه الشخصيه الخاصه التى تدعوه للزواج مثلا فى حاله عدم انجاب الزوجه.
    فيتضح لنا جليا ان الاسباب التى تودى الى تعدد الزوجات تتباين بتباين مذاهب و معتقدات وثقافات الرجل و المراة على حد سوا.

    و لى عودة............
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12-23-2004, 09:40 PM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)

    Thank you very much Nasir this is really good

    فيتضح لنا جليا ان الاسباب التى تودى الى تعدد الزوجات تتباين بتباين مذاهب و معتقدات وثقافات الرجل و المراة على حد سوا.

    Yes and for this reason we need to discuss this issue with more examining eye, I will still see you, mush keda?,
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12-23-2004, 08:27 PM

Mohamed Elbashir
<aMohamed Elbashir
تاريخ التسجيل: 12-04-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear Muna;


    I stopped by your fruitful post and wanted to join the discussion, I think there could be many reasons behind that some causing males not get married and some causing females to accept to be the 2nd wife:


     



      Female population:
    "I tried to find up-to-date censuses records"


    Women outnumber men


    Some statistics from worldpress


    Population:  36,080,373 (July 2001 est.)
    Age structure:  0-14 years:  44.62% (male 8,227,011; female 7,870,783) 15-64 years:  53.29% (male 9,619,218; female 9,608,469)


    Having in mind that the Net migration rate is very high


     


      Poverty


    Over 90 per cent of the Sudanese people (according to some estimates) live below the international poverty line (surviving on less than $1 per day). UNFPA


    A lot of young males can’t afford to get married, and many older can afford it for the second and third time.


     


      Aging factor


    Many of us (males) start thinking about marriage when they get above 30 and some time even in the 40’s, vs. that our sisters are getting married in their 20’s and 30’s and some even before that.


     


      Migration


    Some of our young men started to get married where they landed because it is not expensive and to get legal status


     


      Social Issues


    Some (not that many) get the second (or 3rd or 4th) wife for some social issues (too many to mention).


     


      Some women accept that for the above reason and add to them:


    Family restrictions


    A way to help the family


    To Avoid remaining lonely


    Some cultural prospective regarding unmarried women at a certain age (we can’t deny that)


     


    I hope I added some to your post.


     


    mohamed elbashir


     

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12-23-2004, 09:59 PM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Mohamed Elbashir)

    ,Thanks Mohamed Bashir, a wonderful contribution, you have touched many issues I read in some of the books that Islam allowed polygamy when many men were killed in Islamic battle, especially in UHUD and the numbers of women became too large with fewer men, some of them were already widows with many kids, many of them were old but needed someone to take care of them economically and socially, for that reason it was not like choosing the beautiful one and marry there were more profound causes for polygamy. then Islam at that time had its causes, but there is a very difficult condition, I will come back to you with the right verses, they are in my opinion two specified verses (I will do that later) according to the second verse, Islam demands that the condition for polygamy is to have eqal rights and [justice] between the wives, now what is justice? is it having the same house with the same details in its designs as we see in some houses in Khartoum now? is it food, clothing, time? or does the heart has a say here? and what if the heart loves one of the wives and does not love the other, and according to that more time is spent with the first than that of the second? will that be the meaning of justice mention in our Holly Book??
    I will come back to continue,,
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12-23-2004, 11:51 PM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    عزيزتى منى

    اسمحى لى بتسليط الضوء على مفهوم العدل:

    Quote: is it food, clothing, time? or does the heart has a say here? and what if the heart loves one of the wives and does not love the other, and according to that more time is spent with the first than that of the second? will that be the meaning of justice mention in our Holly Book


    المقصود بكلمه العدل هو العدل الحسى (ليس المقصود الاحساس) او المادى و يتضمن كما زكرتى الملبس و المسكن و الانفاق و الزمن. اما القلب و ما يتعلق به من احساسيس فليس من شروط العدل كما جاء عن النبى "صلى الله عليه و سلم" فالميل القلبى يخرج من بؤرة تحكمنا و لا نستطيع العدل فيه و لو كان شرطا و لو ضممنيا من شروط العدل لما استطاع احد ان يعدل.

    ان يكون هنالك تميزا من ناحيه الميول القلبى فوارد لا محاله و لكن ان يعطى الرجل جزء اكبر من وقته لمن يحب اكثر فهذا اقساط اى انه اخلى بشروط العدل المنصوص عليها, فهو اثم.

    عزيزتى اتمنى ان ننظر لهذا الموضوع من جهه اخرى, لنغطى الموضوع من كل جوانبه, و لى سؤال اتمنى الاجابه عليه, هل ممانعه المراة لفكرة تعدد الزوجات ضرب من ضروب الانانيه؟
    ماذا لو كانت هى المراة الثانيه او الثالثه او الرابعه, هل ياترى ستحتفظ ايضاء باصرارها و ممانعتها للفكرة؟
    الا نرى ان تعدد الزوجات له افرازات صحيه فى سلوكيات المجتمع بغض النظر عن الحالات الشاذة التى نعلم عنها جميها؟
    الا نرى ان تعدد الزوجات يكفل للارامل و الاطفال فرصه اخرى لاعادة الجو الاسرى؟

    ولى عودة
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12-24-2004, 08:28 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)

    Dear Nasir,
    Your post has arrived after Hisham's and few minutes ago,
    YOU SAY@
    , هل ممانعه المراة لفكرة تعدد الزوجات ضرب من ضروب الانانيه؟
    ماذا لو كانت هى المراة الثانيه او الثالثه او الرابعه, هل ياترى ستحتفظ ايضاء باصرارها و ممانعتها للفكرة؟
    الا نرى ان تعدد الزوجات له افرازات صحيه فى سلوكيات المجتمع بغض النظر عن الحالات الشاذة التى نعلم عنها جميها؟

    Who is being selfish here, the man or the woman? However to answer this question with more logic and far from emotions, I would say, many women will never accept polygamy you know why? because women see polygamy as humiliation, a stab to their dignity, and they do not accept to live in the margin of their husband's life, many women do not see themselves as commodity, marriage means, dignity, stability and being real partners. There is no reason for many women to accept polygamy, some of these women are strong, educated, do not fear the economic crises of the future because I do not have husbands,, Their family will not force them to stay in a polygamous marriage. BUT I also have to say this is not the case of all women, or the majority of women, not all women have education, not all women are able to over come the economic burdens because they have jobs, not all women are supported by a wonderful family, not all women do not fear divorce, and most importantly not all women refuse to live in the margin of their lives, because the meaning of marriage and its bounds is different, even marriage has difference concepts for women.
    I am working on a better analysis to polygamy, you will read it sometime between now and tomorrow
    Till then, enjoy your night
    Muna
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12-24-2004, 07:35 PM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 176

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    العزيزة منى

    ما قصدته بالانانيه كالاتى: عندما تكون حواء هى الزوجه الاولى فهى دائماًٌٌٍَُِْ اشد معارضه و ممانعه لفكرت تعدد الزوجات, مهما كانت الاسباب المؤديه لذلك و ان كانت ضروريه, اما اذا كانت حواء هى الزوجه المرغوب فيها كزوجه ثانيه, فسنراها تسيق المبررات لقبول فكرة تعدد الزوجات.

    Quote: I would say, many women will never accept polygamy you know why? because women see polygamy as humiliation, a stab to their dignity, and they do not accept to live in the margin of their husband's life, many women do not see themselves as commodity, marriage means, dignity, stability and being real partners


    الاحساس بجرح الكرامه من قبل الزوجه الاولى احساس طبيعى ولكن من قال انها ستركن على هامش حياة زوجها؟ اذا افترضنا تطبيق مبداء العدل المنصوص عليه.

    عندماخلق الله سبحانه و تعالى ادم عليه السلام خلقه انسانا كاملا, و عندما شعر ادم بالوحده و الملل اخذ الله ضلعه الايسر و خلق منه حواء, فاصبح ادم (ناقص ضلع) و لم يعد انسانا كاملا, عندما انزل الله ادم و حواء الى الارض انزل الله حواء فى (الهند) و ادم فى (جده), فبداء البحث الغريزى ما بين ادم و حواء, و لكن لماذا؟ الم يكن ادم يعيش وحيدا؟ نعم و لكن, لكى يعود ادم لانسانيته الكامله لابد له من اعاده الضلع المفقود و الذى هو حواء.......

    اذا ليس الاحتياج المادى هو السبب الاساسى للزواج او لتعدد الزوجات, هناك ما هو اهم واهم, اذا كانت الزوجه متعلمه كما ذكرت و تعتمد على نفسها ماديا فهل هذا يعنى الاستغناء عن الزوج؟ لا اعتقد ذلك....

    و لى عوده
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12-24-2004, 00:51 AM

Hisham Amin
<aHisham Amin
تاريخ التسجيل: 12-08-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 6034

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear Mona
    ما عارف اكتب ليك بالانجليزى ولا العربي لكن شكلوا كدة You can do both وكدة المشكلة أتحلت
    في الأول تحياتي وأشكرك على الموضوع الظريف دة واسمحي لى بمشاركة خفيفة وسريعة فية
    Polygamy
    قبل حوالى ثلاث سنوات كنت أشاهد احد البرامج التلفزيونية وكان الموضوع محور النقاش تعدد الزوجات وبما ان الموضوع كانت تدور أحداثة فى ولاية يوتا الأمريكية وولاية يوتا يوجد فيها اكبر نسبة من معتنقى ديانة المورمان التي تبيح تعدد الزوجات ويطبق افرادها ما يسمى ال Polygamy على نطاق واسع والمتابع يعرف ان القانون او الدستور الامريكى يحرم تعدد الزوجات الا انة يساند الحرية الشخصية للافراد كما يحترم ديانة الافراد او المجموعات لذا وجب اشراك شخص ذو دراية بالقوانين والدستور الامريكى وكان هذا الشخص هو مساعد القضاة فى المحكمة الامريكية العلياUS Supreme Court .
    معليش نرجع شوية كدة > كان سبب مناقشة الموضوع هو حكم اصدرتة المحكمة بسجن رجل تزوج اكثر من 8 زوجات ولة منهم 21 طفل 3 سنوات فى سجن خفيف الحراسة مع العلم ان عقوبة ال Polygamy قد تصل فى حالة اثباتها الى اكثر من 10 سنوات وهذا لب الموضوع مدة العقوبة .
    عندما سؤل مساعد القضاة عن السجن المخفف لهذا الرجل بداء شرحة كالاتى
    ان امريكا تكفل الحريات وتضمن ممارسة العقائد لاصحابها لهذا السبب خففنا الحكم علية كيف؟
    اذا كان تعدد الزوجات شى تؤمن بة وفى عقيدتك ومارستة برضاء الزوجة ومعرفتها فهو حق لك ولا يعتبر خرق للقانون لماذا لانة وببساطة منزل فى عقيدتك اى انو ليس اذلال للمراة او اثبات لفحولة الرجل او مقياس لثرائة الفاحش (تخريمة) فالمراة تعرف انة فى دينها وتؤمن بة لذا ارتضت بة وليس كما صورت انت فى محض حديثك على انها عادة زادت فى السنين الاخير بل هو معتنق تؤمن بة المراة كما يؤمن بة الرجل ويتم عن اتفاق بين الطرفين المعتفقين وهذة الفقرة اجابة على سؤالك هذا
    Why do men go for polygamy, and why do many women accept it
    اى انة ليس بال phenomenon كما تفضلت
    فى حيثيات البرنامج كان هناك محامى للدفاع يسعى الى الغاء فترة ال3 سنوات التى حوكم بها موكلة مستندا على حرية ممارسة الديانة والمعتنق بل استشهد بالقوانين الاسلامية التى تطبق فى العالم الاسلامى وقال ان موكلى ليس بالشخص الوحيد فى عقيدتة الذى يمارس تعدد الزوجات واذا نظرت حولك ستجد ديانة موازية للمورمان تجيز تعدد الزوجات وهى الديانة الاسلامية لذا وجب اطلاق موكلى وبسرعة
    سئل مقدم البرنامج مساعد القضاة اذن لماذا تم حبسة وعلى ما اذكر قال المساعد لقد تم حبسة لانة لم يستطع الالتزام بواجباتة تجاة ابنائة واسكانهم فى بيت لايسع لهم وفقير من الناحية الصحية ونسبة لان القانون الامريكى لا يبيح تعدد الزوجات قمنا باضافة سنة لمدة حبسة وراعينا انة العائل الوحيد لاسرتة.
    العزيزة منى ارجو ان اكون قد وضحت فى هذة المشاركة ان تعدد الزوجات ليس ب phenomenon بل هو موروث دينى معتنق من قبل الرجل والمراة يتم بالاتفاق بين الاثنين فلا فحولة ولا قوة بل تفاهم
    وتقبلى فائق الاحترام
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12-24-2004, 02:52 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Hisham Amin)

    Dear Hisham
    Thanks for your contribution, and you should always write in Arabic since this is your language. Arabic is my language as well, and I can express myself much better when I use it, but I can't the only reason I use English is the shameful fact, I CANNOT TYPE IN ARABIC.

    My use to the word phenomenon is actually based on the fact that polygamy in the north of Sudan was not a rule in Sudanese men's lives, (see the percentage of polygamy mentioned by anthropologist Lobban), in other words it was not widely spread like in many other Muslim countries in the Middle East for instance Egypt which has a higher percentage of polygamy than Sudan (Research Centre) or in some African Muslim countries. I am comparing the position of polygamy during the 1960 1970's -, in Sudan to that one practiced in these days, and if we want to be precise it is mainly about polygamy in the northern cities, . Examining the two positions, make us say the phenomenon of polygamy in Sudan, which is highlighting to the situation of marriage institution, relating it to polygamy and later we will come to divorce
    We continue
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12-24-2004, 05:34 AM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 176

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    العزيزة منى

    انا فى انتظار الاجابه على اسئلتى الواردة اعلاه

    مع شكرى..........
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12-24-2004, 10:04 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)

    المقصود بكلمه العدل هو العدل الحسى (ليس المقصود الاحساس) او المادى و يتضمن كما زكرتى الملبس و المسكن و الانفاق و الزمن. اما القلب و ما يتعلق به من احساسيس فليس من شروط العدل كما جاء عن النبى "صلى الله عليه و سلم" فالميل القلبى يخرج من بؤرة تحكمنا و لا نستطيع العدل فيه و لو كان شرطا و لو ضممنيا من شروط العدل لما استطاع احد ان يعدل.

    I do not agree with you, justice is justice, and the sort of justice you talk about here is justice made by some laws, meaning written by human being based on their what they thought was correct, or based on their own desires, or on their own interpretation to Islam.
    Do you think enu Allah Bezatu wa Jalultu would limit justice to materials only ?

    Profit Mohamed peace upon him, felt he was not doing justice to his wife Sauda and others, because he loved Aisha more, he prayed to God to forgive him and to help him because he could not divide the same share of love he had to Aisha with others,this blames he had for himself made sauda to donate her day to AISHA isn't

    it beautiful? it shows how profound is the meaning of justice?
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12-24-2004, 10:45 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear All,
    as promised I am back with some discussion,

    Polygamy as I see it, “a legitimate Islamic prohibition”!

    At the arrival of Islam, the Arabs generally used to have ten or more wives and they often treated them badly. Islam limited the number of wives to four wives maximum. Islam tolerated polygamy on the ground of necessity and it was permitted under certain conditions. For example, to provide for the many whose husbands (or prospective husbands) had died fighting for Islam after the Isalmic battle of Uhud’ in which a large number of Muslims died and the number of women became extremely higher than men. It is not clear for me why the number of four wives was mentioned as a maximum, may be that was relatively based on the existing number of women compared to number of men at that time. Polygamy was permitted to allow unmarried women to have husbands in order to fulfil their social and economic needs. The Koran puts a hard condition for polygamy, which is treating women fairly and equally “If you cannot deal equitably and justly with all, you shall marry only one.” (Surat el Nisa’a: 3) and “Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if that were your ardent desire” (IV: 129).

    I see the issue of polygamy like many of the controversial issues affecting women’s lives in Islamic society. The rejection or acceptance of polygamy in Sudanese society differs from one community to another and from one class to another. For instance and as we have explained earlier, the well-educated women with jobs and social status may stand against polygamy, women here are aware of their rights because they are educated and independent and they don’t fear divorce that might come as a result to polygamy. Because of their social status, which they are proud of, they stand against polygamy because it destroys that status.
    The interpretation of the Koran’ verse on marriage and polygamy – whether to allow it or not, differs from one country to another, based on certain interpretations to Islam, on their customary laws, norms and also on the ideology of the government. The Koran says “And if ye apprehend that ye may not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry such as please you, of other women, by twos threes or fours”. Another Koran’s verse “Marry such women as seem good to you two, three, or four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry one only”. In fact, Islam has instituted a very difficult condition for polygamy, which is that the women involved are treated with equal justice. The Koran’s verses end, however, by suggesting that such justice is impossible.
    Justice and equality mean that the women are given the same emotional care and treated with equality, in addition to equal financial and material benefits of the marriage. Many Muslim feminists in the African region and the Islamic world have called for the abolition of polygamy, and for the adoption of the international conventions on women’s rights, but their calls are not supported by their societies and also rejected by the governments and the male-dominated authorities. It is also the case that most of Sudanese women are not joining their voices to reject polygamy. And here I would like to talk about the causes that make women accept polygamy, one is the social factor, which is mentioned earlier by Mohamed el Bashir, for instance a woman may find herself caught in a poor situation, I mean no family to support her, she may go for polygamy because it provides her with security, a home and a family of her own even when there are others involved. In a patriarchal society like the Sudanese one, women also fear to get older without marrying, polygamy may provide the woman with the only marriage’ proposal in her life. It is an opportunity to have a husband and may be children, and you know the importance of these issues in the different Sudanese societies. A woman without a husband and children will be blamed in most of the time.

    In a country with a high illiteracy like Sudan, women accept whatever happens to them because they have no other alternative, or because they are made to think that the situation they live in is the best, can a woman from a poor family or even a rural family go back to her family because her husband has taken another wife?

    We are talking here at least about three parties involved, the husband (the king) and the two wives. What we mentioned above applies in both wives, both are in this marriage because of the cultural, social and economical pressure and also children.
    It is also true that the first wife who cannot have children, prefers in most of the time to stay married to her husband when he takes his second wife, of course she wants him to have children, because she knows he wants children, she wants him to be happy, but at the same time other women accept polygamy because they fear to ask for divorce, again the factors we mentioned earlier are causes for accepting polygamy.
    we continue

    (عدل بواسطة Muna Khugali on 12-28-2004, 05:05 AM)

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12-24-2004, 11:51 PM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear my brother Nasir,

    Thank you very much for your contribution for the follow up.
    اذا ليس الاحتياج المادى هو السبب الاساسى للزواج او لتعدد الزوجات, هناك ما هو اهم واهم, اذا كانت الزوجه متعلمه كما ذكرت و تعتمد على نفسها ماديا فهل هذا يعنى الاستغناء عن الزوج؟ لا اعتقد ذلك....
    we said we have to examine the dynamics in polygamy, we have been talking about different factors,
    Please read the previous contributions and the rest will follow, an attempt to analyse polygamy,

    Muna
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12-25-2004, 07:46 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Hello friends,
    Why do educated women with economic independence accept polygamy? A female Ph.D holder told me about her own experience in marriage, she was his second wife. She was in love with her husband twenty years ago, but they could not get married at that time, she stayed single because no suitable man demanded her hand in marriage, and of course it is always the man who proposes to woman, while he married another woman. They met again when she was in her forties and when he proposed to her this time she immediately accepted. She explained that she did not mind him having another wife although she was not happy about it. She accepted because she became “old” and her chances (if any existed) in the northern Sudanese society are only limited to married men or widowers. She explained that the marriage provides her with the opportunity to get some social independence from her family, happiness with the one she loved. She could have her own home in Khartoum, even though the husband is working abroad; having a home is just like having a complete identity. She and her husband meet few times during the year. For the society and for her, a married woman has a social status that would enable her to move with “some freedom”. But she complained, because she is always the second wife, while society tolerate polygamy, they also blame the second wife for taking a man from his family!! Her economic independence and her high education were not sufficient to give her the confidence and the security to reject such a marriage, because the pressure of the customs and the society is difficult to bear. this is one example to many similar cases, other factors are coming.

    we continue
    Muna
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12-27-2004, 05:19 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear All, it has been and still is, very difficult to access the board, hope you are all fine.

    I continue to add to my contribuion and here we focus on rural women and polygamy

    Polygamy for many Sudanese women especially in the rural areas is not considered a stigma that women fear. The majority of women of course are not happy to accept polygamy, but they accept it because they learn through life it is a religious right given to the man by God. The different cultures prevalent in rural society support this belief, especially when polygamy is normally practiced in the family. In rural areas of Sudan like in the other rural areas of most of Muslim countries and many of non-Islamic African countries, polygamy is considered the ultimate right of the man, and women should not even think of complaining against it. Men who practice polygamy defend their positions by using religion or customs. Polygamy is still strong even when religion is not directly involved; sometimes customs and traditions are stronger than religion.

    One of my Sudanese female friends in a polygamous marriage, from the south explained to me that her position as the first wife gives her the authority to choose the new wife for her husband and all the other wives that might follow. As a result, she may take rest from heavy family obligations. This new position gives her also a higher social status within the tribe because she is able to command the whole set of wives and children, who would spontaneously pay great respect and obedience to her. The first wife enjoys privileges that are supported by society to reward her for her understanding position. The first wife’s selection of the subsequent wives is based on the new bride’ ability to give her husband more children, it depends on her young age, her good conduct, health and beauty. She must be able to carry out the heavy domestic work, such as fetching water from the well, cooking for the extended family, taking care of children and animals while giving birth to children. For the first wife, polygamy is a solution, it is needed to support her and reduce her burdens, to provide her with the time to take care of herself, and exercise more control over the new wives, while remaining loved by her husband and appreciated for choosing for him other beautiful, young and fulfilling wives. Then polygamy is helping both men and women and within this context women are accepting it. The obedience of women to men is indications of the good background of women. However, all Sudanese cultures, Islamic or non Islamic expect the obedience and subordination of women to men and this is done under the names of different values. Of course this would also vary from one class to another. For many women being seen polite and obedient is a source of pride for them and at the same time it provides them with security.
    hope to come back soon,
    Muna
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12-27-2004, 10:41 AM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 176

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear Muna

    Read This

    Quote: AGEHI World : Polygamy as a risk factor for child mortality in Northern Sudan
    [paper read at the annual meeting of Population Association Of America-PAA; March 2001,Washington DC]

    El Rayah A.Osman, South Carolina State University, Oragneburg, SC 29117, [email protected]

    The main purpose of this matter is to examine the possible links between polygamy (meaning that a man has several wives) and child mortality (death to children under five years of age) in Northern Sudan introduce three hypotheses to account for the effect of polygamy on child survival. Employing data from Sudan Demographic and Health survey (1989/90), logistic regression techniques were used to test these hypotheses. The results show support for the hypothesis that women may experience the cost of polygamy through an increase in child mortality. That is, women living in polygamous marriages have low child survival rates compared to those living in monogamous marriages.




    Quote: A call for more polygamy

    KHARTOUM (Reuters) - Sudan's President Omar Hassan al-Bashir has urged Sudanese men to take more than one
    wife in order to double the country's population of 30 million.

    The Sudanese should ignore international family planning policies, Bashir said in a speech to the ruling National Congress Party, shown on state television Tuesday night.

    He said Sudan needed more people for development, since it is Africa's biggest country and rich in resources.

    ``We should achieve this aim by having many wives,'' Bashir said.

    Men in mainly Muslim Sudan are allowed up to four wives, according to Islamic Sharia law, which Bashir's government promotes. Rebels opposed to Sharia in non-Muslim south Sudan have been fighting for autonomy since 1983.
    But a divorce under Islamic law is not considered sufficient in British law, and people
    wishing to remarry must get a document known as a decree absolute before they can
    do so.

    Some Muslim women, badly advised by lawyers ignorant of this, are therefore committing
    bigamy when they remarry - an offence punishable by seven years' imprisonment.

    One lawyer told the BBC that over the last two years he had intervened in a dozen cases.

    In some instances, bigamy had taken place.

    Trying to find the extent of the problem is likely to be the subject of a second report.

    Researchers are now calling on all judges and lawyers to be given training in basic Muslim
    law, so people can get proper legal advice.

    Sonianurin Shah-Kazemi, of the University of Westminster, said it was essential that lawyers should be made aware of crucial differences between British and Muslim law.

    "It is very important that those training to become lawyers and those already in the
    profession are given adequate knowledge about Muslim family law, the situation of
    conflicts of law.

    "This is very easy to do, it could just involve doing an extra lecture a week."



    I will be back to analysis this topic deeply from different point of views.
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12-27-2004, 01:45 PM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)

    very interesting Nasir, I will try to contribute in your contribution insha'alla,
    Muna
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12-27-2004, 11:19 PM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Polygamy

    Perhaps the aspect of Islam in respect of women which is most prominent in the Western mind is that of polygamy. Firstly let me clarify that Islam does not impose polygamy as a universal practice. The Prophet himself was a monogamist for the greater part of his married life, from the age of twenty-five when he married Khadija until he was fifty when she died.

    One should therefore regard monogamy as the norm and polygamy as the exception.

    One may observe that, although it has been abused in some times and some places, polygamy has under certain circumstances a valuable function. In some situations it may be considered as the lesser of two evils, and in other situations it may even be positively beneficial arrangement.

    The most obvious example of this occurs in times of war when there are inevitably large numbers of widows and girls whose fiancées and husbands have been killed in the fighting. One has only to recall the figures of the dead in the first and second world wars to be aware that literally millions of women and girls lost their husbands and fiancées and were left alone without any income or care or protection for themselves or their children. If it is still maintained that under these circumstances a man may marry only one wife, what options are left to the millions of other women who have no hope of getting a husband? Their choice, bluntly stated , is between a chaste and childless old maidenhood, or becoming somebody's mistress, that is an unofficial second wife with no legal rights for herself or for her children. Most women would not welcome either of these since most women have always wanted and still do want the security of a legal husband and family.

    The compromise therefore is for women under these circumstances to face that if given the alternative many of them would rather share a husband than have none at all. And there is no doubt that it is easier to share a husband when it is an established and publicly recognized practice than when it is carried on secretly along with attempts to deceive the first wife.

    And it is no secret that polygamy of a sort is widely carried on in Europe and America. The difference is that while the Western man has no legal obligations to his second, third or fourth mistresses and their children, the Muslim husband has complete legal obligations towards his second, third or fourth wife and their children.

    There may be other circumstances unrelated to war--individual circumstances, where marriage to more than one wife may be preferable to other available alternatives--for example where the first wife is chronically sick or disabled. There are of course some husbands who can manage this situation, but no one would deny its potential hazards. A second marriage in some cases could be a solution acceptable to all three parties.

    Again there are cases in which a wife is unable to have children, while the husband very much wants them. Under Western laws a man must either accept his wife's childlessness if he can, or if he cannot he must find a means of divorce in order to marry again. This could be avoided in some cases if the parties agreed on a second marriage.

    There are other cases where a marriage has not been very successful and the husband loves another woman. This situation is so familiar that it is known as the Eternal Triangle, Under Western laws the husband cannot marry the second woman without divorcing the first one. But the first wife may not wish to be divorced. She may no longer love her husband, but she may still respect him and wish to stay with him for the security of marriage, for herself and their children. Similarly the second woman may not wish to break up the man's first family. There are certain cases such as this where both women could accept a polygamous marriage rather than face divorce on the one hand or an extra-marital affair on the other.

    I have mentioned some of these examples because to the majority of Westerners polygamy is only thought of in the context of a harem of glamorous young girls, not as a possible solution to some of the problems of Western society itself. I have given some time to it not in order to advocate its indiscriminate use, but in an attempt to show that it is a practice not to be condemned without thinking of its uses and possible benefits in any community.


    Why then did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him practice polygamy?

    Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him can be treated as an exceptional case. The Noble Verses that I presented above clearly talked about men and women in general. They apply to all men and all women. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a Messenger of GOD (filled with sympathy and mercy to people) and a leader for all Muslims. He didn't practice polygamy for the sake of sexual pleasure at all. Most of his wives were either widows (older than him in age too) or divorced women (also most of them were either older or same age). Only one of his wives was a virgin, and he only married her because her father was his best friend. He wanted to strengthen that relationship. And it was her father who offered her to our Prophet peace be upon him anyway.

    If our beloved Prophet peace be upon him really seeked sexual pleasure, then he would've married young virgins from the Muslims. Back then, people loved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him so much, that they would literally do anything for him. Certainly fathers would've given him their young virgin daughters if he wanted to. Many people offered him their young virgin bosomed daughters anyway to raise their families' honor, but our Prophet never seeked that sexual privilege in life.

    Because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a smart political leader and a wonderful humble merciful true Messenger of Allah Almighty, he chose to marry the weak from his people to encourage the Muslim men to do the same; to create a balance in the Muslim society. Again, another emergency case that existed during Islam's weak times that forced the Muslims (including Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him) to practice polygamy.


    Can anyone be absolutely fair?

    No one on this earth including Muhammad peace be upon him can be absolutely fair. Our Prophet peace be upon him used to pray in one of his prayers to Allah Almighty by saying in Arabic "Allah humma innaka taalamu be anni aadiloo bima astatee', wa lakinnee la aadiloo bima la astatee'," which means in English "Dear Allah, you are well aware that I try to be just with all I can, but I can't be just with what I can't." This prayer means that our Prophet always tried to be fair as much as possible, but he couldn't always do that.

    One time, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said this prayer, because he used to love his wife Aisha (who was the youngest of his wives) the most, and he always feared that he would not be fair to the rest of his wives. Muhammad peace be upon him recognized that he was only a human being, and he can not be fair especially in his feelings at all time.

    This clearly proves that Islam highly discourages the marriage of multiple wives for (1) Because no one can be fair; (2) polygamy is only allowed when the male species is endangered in a society; and (3) The Noble Verse 4:3 orders us to marry only one wife if we feel that we will not be fair.

    The Noble Verse that I presented above also clearly proves that no one can be absolutely fair; "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:129)"


    Thanks
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12-28-2004, 01:52 AM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 176

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Polygamy

    Perhaps the aspect of Islam in respect of women which is most prominent in the Western mind is that of polygamy. Firstly let me clarify that Islam does not impose polygamy as a universal practice. The Prophet himself was a monogamist for the greater part of his married life, from the age of twenty-five when he married Khadija until he was fifty when she died.

    One should therefore regard monogamy as the norm and polygamy as the exception.

    One may observe that, although it has been abused in some times and some places, polygamy has under certain circumstances a valuable function. In some situations it may be considered as the lesser of two evils, and in other situations it may even be positively beneficial arrangement.

    The most obvious example of this occurs in times of war when there are inevitably large numbers of widows and girls whose fiancées and husbands have been killed in the fighting. One has only to recall the figures of the dead in the first and second world wars to be aware that literally millions of women and girls lost their husbands and fiancées and were left alone without any income or care or protection for themselves or their children. If it is still maintained that under these circumstances a man may marry only one wife, what options are left to the millions of other women who have no hope of getting a husband? Their choice, bluntly stated , is between a chaste and childless old maidenhood, or becoming somebody's mistress, that is an unofficial second wife with no legal rights for herself or for her children. Most women would not welcome either of these since most women have always wanted and still do want the security of a legal husband and family.

    The compromise therefore is for women under these circumstances to face that if given the alternative many of them would rather share a husband than have none at all. And there is no doubt that it is easier to share a husband when it is an established and publicly recognized practice than when it is carried on secretly along with attempts to deceive the first wife.

    And it is no secret that polygamy of a sort is widely carried on in Europe and America. The difference is that while the Western man has no legal obligations to his second, third or fourth mistresses and their children, the Muslim husband has complete legal obligations towards his second, third or fourth wife and their children.

    There may be other circumstances unrelated to war--individual circumstances, where marriage to more than one wife may be preferable to other available alternatives--for example where the first wife is chronically sick or disabled. There are of course some husbands who can manage this situation, but no one would deny its potential hazards. A second marriage in some cases could be a solution acceptable to all three parties.

    Again there are cases in which a wife is unable to have children, while the husband very much wants them. Under Western laws a man must either accept his wife's childlessness if he can, or if he cannot he must find a means of divorce in order to marry again. This could be avoided in some cases if the parties agreed on a second marriage.

    There are other cases where a marriage has not been very successful and the husband loves another woman. This situation is so familiar that it is known as the Eternal Triangle, Under Western laws the husband cannot marry the second woman without divorcing the first one. But the first wife may not wish to be divorced. She may no longer love her husband, but she may still respect him and wish to stay with him for the security of marriage, for herself and their children. Similarly the second woman may not wish to break up the man's first family. There are certain cases such as this where both women could accept a polygamous marriage rather than face divorce on the one hand or an extra-marital affair on the other.

    I have mentioned some of these examples because to the majority of Westerners polygamy is only thought of in the context of a harem of glamorous young girls, not as a possible solution to some of the problems of Western society itself. I have given some time to it not in order to advocate its indiscriminate use, but in an attempt to show that it is a practice not to be condemned without thinking of its uses and possible benefits in any community.


    Why then did Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him practice polygamy?

    Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him can be treated as an exceptional case. The Noble Verses that I presented above clearly talked about men and women in general. They apply to all men and all women. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a Messenger of GOD (filled with sympathy and mercy to people) and a leader for all Muslims. He didn't practice polygamy for the sake of sexual pleasure at all. Most of his wives were either widows (older than him in age too) or divorced women (also most of them were either older or same age). Only one of his wives was a virgin, and he only married her because her father was his best friend. He wanted to strengthen that relationship. And it was her father who offered her to our Prophet peace be upon him anyway.

    If our beloved Prophet peace be upon him really seeked sexual pleasure, then he would've married young virgins from the Muslims. Back then, people loved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him so much, that they would literally do anything for him. Certainly fathers would've given him their young virgin daughters if he wanted to. Many people offered him their young virgin bosomed daughters anyway to raise their families' honor, but our Prophet never seeked that sexual privilege in life.

    Because Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a smart political leader and a wonderful humble merciful true Messenger of Allah Almighty, he chose to marry the weak from his people to encourage the Muslim men to do the same; to create a balance in the Muslim society. Again, another emergency case that existed during Islam's weak times that forced the Muslims (including Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him) to practice polygamy.


    Can anyone be absolutely fair?

    No one on this earth including Muhammad peace be upon him can be absolutely fair. Our Prophet peace be upon him used to pray in one of his prayers to Allah Almighty by saying in Arabic "Allah humma innaka taalamu be anni aadiloo bima astatee', wa lakinnee la aadiloo bima la astatee'," which means in English "Dear Allah, you are well aware that I try to be just with all I can, but I can't be just with what I can't." This prayer means that our Prophet always tried to be fair as much as possible, but he couldn't always do that.

    One time, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said this prayer, because he used to love his wife Aisha (who was the youngest of his wives) the most, and he always feared that he would not be fair to the rest of his wives. Muhammad peace be upon him recognized that he was only a human being, and he can not be fair especially in his feelings at all time.

    This clearly proves that Islam highly discourages the marriage of multiple wives for (1) Because no one can be fair; (2) polygamy is only allowed when the male species is endangered in a society; and (3) The Noble Verse 4:3 orders us to marry only one wife if we feel that we will not be fair.

    The Noble Verse that I presented above also clearly proves that no one can be absolutely fair; "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:129)"


    Thanks
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12-28-2004, 10:59 AM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 176

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)

    Dear Muna

    Let Us Seek for good Conclution for this Topic



    Have a Nice Time
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12-28-2004, 11:08 AM

محمد حامد جمعه
<aمحمد حامد جمعه
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 6807

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)

    الموضوع جميل ومفيد خالص كما اشيد بالمشاركات وهذا من نوع البوستات التى ارجو ان نرى العشرات منها لتحاشى كثير من العك واللعب على الاجسام ان صح الوصف والذى برز مؤخرا واقول ان الموضوع بكافة ابعاده يحتاج لطرح وطرق متصل لان - وانا اتحدث من داخل الوطن - ثمة عزوف جماعى عن الزواج وحتى من يقدمون عليه يكونون وبسهولة عرضة للانهيار بعلاقتهم الى الطلاق والمسالة معقدة لكن فى راى الشخصى ان الزواج بامراة او امراتين مسالة لا ارى فيها مندوحة وبالعكس اقرها وارى ان التفهم الاجتماعى لهذه المسالة خاصة من جانب النساء من شانه ان يفضى الى حلول واوضاع ايجابية . وشخصيا اعتقد ان المراة المطلقة او الارملة انضج واكثر واقعية بحكم تجربتها السابقة - ولا اعنى بها دلالات المسائل الشخصية - اقدر على توفير حياة هادئة وواعية ومستقرة للرجل ولهذا دوما انصح بزواج المطلقات
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12-28-2004, 11:31 AM

Omer Abdalla
<aOmer Abdalla
تاريخ التسجيل: 01-02-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 3077

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    الأخت الكريمة منى
    احييك وضيوفك الكرام واحي فيك طرحك الجاد لهذا الموضوع الهام
    ضيق وقتي قد لا يتيح لي التواجد المستمر هنا ولكن احب ان اقدم رابط لموضوع آخر متعلق به وهو موضوع "العصمة" في الخيط التالي ، خاصة وأنه بدأ يتطرق ايضا لموضوع تعدد الزوجات .. فأرجو المتابعة:
    العصمة في يد المرا ..أرجو الراجيكم (دراسة)

    ولكن قبل أن أبرح مقامي يسعدني أن أشارك بما خطه قلم الاستاذ محمود محمد طه عن تعدد الزوجات في كتابه الرسالة الثانية من الاسلام

    تعدد الزوجات ليس أصلا في الإسلام

    والأصل في الإسلام أن المرأة كفاءة للرجل في الزواج، فالرجل كله للمرأة كلها، بلا مهر يدفعه، ولا طلاق يقع بينهما. ويلتمس منع التعدد في قوله تعالى (فإن خفتم ألا تعدلوا فواحدة) وفي قوله تعالى (ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء ولو حرصتم). ويلتمس منع الطلاق في قولة المعصوم (أبغض الحلال إلى الله الطلاق) والإشارة اللطيفة أن ما يبغضه الله لا بد مانعه، حين يصير المنع ممكنا، وعمليا. فإن الله بالغ أمره.

    ويلتمس عدم إرادة الإسلام، في أصوله، المهر، في كون المهر يمثل ثمن شراء المرأة حين كانت إنما تزوج عن طريق من ثلاثة طرق.. إما أن تسبى، أو تختطف، أو تشترى، فهو بذلك من مخلفات عهد هوانها على الناس، وما ينبغي له أن يدخل معها عهد كرامتها التي أعدها لها الإسلام، حين تدخل أصوله طور التطبيق.

    ولقد نزل الإسلام، أول ما نزل، على مجتمع لم تكن فيه للمرأة كرامة، على نحو ما رأينا آنفا. وإنما كانت تعامل معاملة تسلكها في عداد الرقيق.. ولم تكن العلاقة الزوجية تقوم على الإنسانية واللطف مما ينبغي لها، وإنما كان الرجل يتزوج العشر زوجات، والعشرين، يستولدهن، ويستغل عملهن.

    وهناك ظاهرة أخرى وجدها الإسلام في ذلك المجتمع وهي أن عدد النساء كان يفوق عدد الرجال، لما كانت تأكل الحروب منهم. فشرع الإسلام في تقييد الإفراط في التعدد، ولكنه لم ير أن يقفز بالناس إلى زواج الواحدة، لأن ذلك لا يستقيم له في ذلك المجتمع الذي مرد على الإفراط في التعدد، ولأنه رأى لأن يكون للمرأة ربع رجلن يعفها، ويحميها، ويغذوها، خير من أن تكون عانسا تتعرض لعاديات الأيام وهي مندوحة الذيل. وكذلك قيد تعدد الزوجات بأربع، فقال عز من قائل (فانكحوا ما طاب لكم من النساء، مثنى، وثلاث، ورباع، فإن خفتم ألا تعدلوا فواحدة) وفي موضع آخر ترد إشارة غاية في اللطف تحدثنا عن صعوبة العدل بين النساء، وذلك حين قال تعالى (ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء، ولو حرصتم، فلا تميلوا كل الميل فتذروها كالمعلقة، وإن تصلحوا، وتتقوا، فإن الله كان غفورا رحيما) نزل من مستوى العدل الذي هو مطلوب الدين، والذي لم يكن وقته، بالنسبة للمجتمع، وبالنسبة للفرد، من رجل، وامرأة، قد حان يومئذ، إلى مستوى العدل في الشريعة، فأعقب قوله (ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء، ولو حرصتم) بقوله (فلا تميلوا كل الميل فتذروها كالمعلقة) وبذلك أصبح معنى العدل هنا يقتصر على العدل المادي.. ولا يتناول ميل القلوب، ولولا هذا التجاوز لما أصبح تشريع التعدد ممكنا، وهو، في واقع الأمر، تشريع ضروري، وبخاصة لتلك الفترة من حياة المجتمع المؤمن.

    وطبيعة العدل هنا ألا يقيد بما تقيد به الحرية، لأنه هنا حق، يقابله واجب، فمن لا يعرف الواجب يسلب الحق. وكانت المرأة متخلفة كثيرا، ولم تكن في مستوى المساواة مع الرجل، وقد تضافرت عدة عوامل لوضعها ذلك الوضع المتخلف، فجاء تقييد العدل في حقها عدلا، فيه لها خدمة، ولمجتمعها خدمة. ويعتبر تشريع التعدد تشريع فترة انتقال الى فجر المساواة التامة بين الرجال والنساء، ويومها يصبح العدل في حقها يشمل العدل في ميل القلوب، وهو المعني بقوله (ولن تستطيعوا أن تعدلوا بين النساء، ولو حرصتم) ويجئ يومئذ القيد من قبل قوله تعالى (فإن خفتم ألا تعدلوا فواحدة) وهكذا يشرع في تحريم التعدد، إلا لدى ضرورات بعينها تلجئ إليه، وينص عليها في القانون، ويستأمر فيها الطرف المضرور بها.
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12-29-2004, 05:06 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Omer Abdalla)

    Dear brother Omer Abdalla and all,
    ,
    We miss elustaz elshaheed Mahmoud Mohamed Taha , his martyrdom is one proof to the narrow mentality of those who want to control women using Islam as a tool. It highilights the old history of Muslims when they insisted on closing the door of Ijtihad in interpreting religion, only to make Islam, the religion of tolerance and justice, looks like a religion of terror
    .
    Thanks for sending the link and we hope we all continue debating this issue, in order to continue invading the prevalent attitudes in our society about polygamy and attempt with others to correct them. The issues of personal matters should be seriously addressed because should not be taboos. Even from an Islamic persepective, we don't deserve to be Khalifat Alla fi al Ard if we don't have Ijtihad
    Muna.
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12-31-2004, 07:51 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    Dear friends

    sorry for not continuing debating this issue,
    I take this opportunity to wish you all a wonderful beautiful year, and may Allah make it peaceful and full of better rights for all especially women.
    __________________

    Some of the Sudanese Muslim women exiled in Egypt explained they were not against polygamy because they believe it was an Islamic right given to the man; one way of solving many problems. For those who supported polygamy, they discuss that opportunities of marriage are few when a woman is over thirty, because this is already considered a late age for marriage in Sudan. Beside age factor, there are other factors, family status, beauty, etc. The Sudanese society puts lots of pressure on women for reaching certain age without being married. This pressure would also confuse many of the women when choosing their husbands. During November 2003, a serious debate took place on one of the Sudanese news- paper. The cause of this debate was the marriage of a young female journalist to an old rich Sudanese journalist. The gap of age between the two was about forty years. The issue itself was not new in Sudan many of old men especially in the rural areas marry very young girls. But the new factor here is that both were famous, well educated and the reasons given by the bride for marrying her groom have shocked some people. In her defence for marrying that particular person she based part of her argument on the age factor, she jumped the thirty years without being married, that was a social and cultural burden on her. In this case, education by itself was not enough to stop polygamy many factors including cultural elements are stronger than education. The female journalist was heavily blamed in the newspapers because progressive men and women considered her a role model who should have a different stand
    We continue,.

    Muna
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12-31-2004, 08:08 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    ,Dear partners in this post,

    Here we discuss some of the legal aspect of Polygamy in Sudan.

    The support of the law to polygamy is clear in the Sudanese 1991' Personal Matters Act although there is no direct article supporting it. However, article51, which is concerned with the rights of the wife, states “The husband should allow his wife to visit her parents, her brothers, uncles, grandfathers (Muhrims) to consult with them if there is a cause for consultation; the husband should also justify between his wives if he has more than one wife”. Another article of the Act criminalizes those who marry more than four wives even if one of them is disabled-Article 19.
    The law does not give the wife the right to divorce because of polygamy even if the wife felt she could not continue to live with her husband. However, it allows her to divorce if she could prove that the husband has caused her harm by marrying another wife; like if he stopped seeing her or abstained from providing her with shelter, food and cloths or caused her harm. She could also divorce him by using alKhul’ law and this is another story,
    We continue
    Muna.
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12-31-2004, 08:57 AM

خضر عطا المنان
<aخضر عطا المنان
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 5191

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    عزيزتي : منى


    أولا أحيي فيك طرحك الجاد لهذا الموضوع الحيوي المتشعب
    وذو البعدين الديني والاجتماعي معا ..

    والواقع أن الناظر بعمق لمسألة تعدد الزوجات خاصة في السودان
    لابد أن يستوقفه هذا الخلط العجيب بين ماهو ديني وماهو اجتماعي ..
    ورغم أن رأي الشرع واضح في هذا الصدد وهو( مثني وثلاث ورباع ..الخ)
    الأ أن هذا الشرع اشترط لذلك العدل ( وان خفتم الا تعدلوا ....الخ ) ..
    وهو أمر يتجاهله كثيرون من السودانيين المقدمين على الزواج
    بأكثر من واحدة .. بل أن بعضهم ـ للأسف ـ يبرر ذلك بحجج أخرى
    تصب في معظمها في خانة المجاملات أو اشباع رغبة لديه قد لا تلبيه
    ـ برأيه ـ أمرأة واحدة !!!!! لذا نجد أن معظم مثل هؤلاء الرجال
    يعيشون انفصاما أو تمزقا بشأن التوفيق في الحياة بين الزوجتين
    بسبب ـ في الغالب ـ غياب العدل الذي هو مبدأ اصيل وأساسي في تعدد
    الزوجات استنادا الى شرع الله الذي يتعمد معظمهم تغييبه عند التفكير
    في الاقدام على خطوة الزواج بأخرى بجانب زوجته الأولى !!!!.

    ورغم كل شيئ تظل قضية تعدد الزوجات مسألة جدلية رغم وضوح الرأي
    الشرعي فيها كما أسلفت .

    لك التحية عزيزتي منى ولأخوتي المتداخلين كافة.

    وحتما لي عودة لهذا الموضوع الحيوي الهام .

    وكل عام وأنت بالف خير.
    خضرعطا المنان
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12-31-2004, 09:10 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    My dear Firends,

    We earlier mentioned that Islamic countries have different interpretation to the same Koran’ verse. Some of them interpret it with consideration to certain parts while turning a blind eye to the rest. Some of them give literal interpretation that does not consider the profound and far meaning of the verses. For example, the verse says (marry such a woman as twice, three, or four of them, but if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry only one), we find Muslims who interpret Koran; intentionally ignore the above underlined part. While in Tunisia the law is based on the last verse in the same Sura of Koran( try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially). Based on that interpretation, many of the Arab women demand that the Tunisian law (regarding marriage) be the base of laws in their countries, because it is based on the spirit of Islam.

    In the Tunisian law of 1956, a complete prohibition of polygamy was adopted. Of course, the change of Personal Status Code in Tunisia brought out anger against President Bourgaiba, as many male judges, initially, objected to its use in ruling. They wrote a petition against its existence because they believe the introduced law is limiting an Islamic right given to men. They refused in many times to apply the new laws, which led president Bourgaiba to transfer them from the Sharia courts to other civil courts. Tunisian law says “those who marry for the second time while they are still married to the first wife should face a sentence of one year imprisonment and a fine of two hundred and forty thousand Francs”( The laws for women’s rights in Tunisia, March 1956-1999, family and women’s rights; also published in Sudan Human Rights Organisation, Cairo, 1996.
    The Tunisian government has also used the Koran to convince people with its new Jurisdiction, it did not only issue laws and forced people to follow them. For instance, the government explained that the Tunisian law is based on the essence of Shar’ia, by saying “to avoid committing a sin in religion, resulting from an unjustifiable situation between the several wives, as God ordered in the Holy Koran, the law prohibits polygamy and this is one of the means to ensure and secure equality between the husband and the wife” (Personal Matters Law in Tunisia. The government argued that polygamy is like slavery; it was an institution whose past purpose was no longer acceptable to most people, and the ideal of the Koran was monogamy. These changes in personal law however, were also accompanied by social transformation, which was important in preparing society to accept them and that was mainly done by a programme of women’s emancipation while also enforcing education for all. The establishment of the neo-Destourian Party has helped in working in planned social transformation (PSD) in 1964. Social transformation was needed to support the laws. However, Shar’ia remains the source of law in the issue of inheritance in Tunisia.
    Women's rights in Tunisia including the Personal Matters Laws were mainly supported by the government who was also motivated by a great desire to create a modern society and institutions after the independence from France.
    We continue
    Muna
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01-08-2005, 11:21 AM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    الأعـزاء

    أتمـنـي أن نعـاود منـاقشـة تعـدد الزوجـات ...
    هـل مـن مـشـاركـات جـديدة ?
    لـكـم التحـايا...

    مـنـي
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01-08-2005, 04:35 PM

عبدالناصر معتصم
<aعبدالناصر معتصم
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 176

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Muna Khugali)

    الاخت منى

    كنت فى انتظار الرجوع لتكملت النقاش فى هذا الموضوع!!!!!

    و لى عوده



    لك التحايا
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01-14-2005, 07:39 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: عبدالناصر معتصم)
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01-14-2005, 09:33 AM

manubia
<amanubia
تاريخ التسجيل: 04-21-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 1284

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: Abdel Aati)

    this is an interesting topic,really, inshaallah i will be back for comments.
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01-14-2005, 12:36 PM

Muna Khugali
<aMuna Khugali
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-27-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 22430

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: Polygamy in Sudan (Re: manubia)

    Dear Adel,
    Thanks for the links will have a thorough reading to them after the 20th of this month with comments.

    Dear Manubia,
    It will definitely be great to have contribution from you,
    Thanks

    Muna Khugali
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