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مكتبة عادل عبد العاطى(Abdel Aati)
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The Price of Honesty

10-14-2004, 07:52 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
The Price of Honesty

    Dear Adil

    I have finished writing the story and I am attaching it. I tried to put numbers so that it can be post it like a series, as it is long it will not be exciting for people to read it once.
    I know you know these techniques better than me. The other thing is that doing this technique will keep the story up and of course I want many people to read it and contribute to the the discusion. So, please try always to keep it up.

    As the story was very sensitive to me, I really appreciate keeping the confidentiality of who is the writer of the story (thanks for that Adil).

    At a later stage I might send some stuffs related to the idea behind the story.

    I wrote it in English and I know this will prevent many from participating........but I feel better expressing myself in English and also I have no access to arabic software,

    thanks adil for the favour and best wishes

    .................
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 07:53 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    (1)
    Prologue

    What motivated me to write this story now is the excellent post by Muzan on ‘’Soul Prostitution’’ thanks Muzan and keep on questioning and challenging the mindset of our society. The narrative of this story is largely based on a real life story. The purpose, however, is not in the story itself as it is not unique and many of us (the readers) might have known somehow similar experiences. The aim, however, is to stimulate discussion and debate on the hypocrisy that dominates the behaviour of some (if not many) educated and democratic individuals in our society. I hope this narrative will provoke us to question our integrity as regard to the principles we hold and the moral standards we aim for.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 07:55 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    The Story

    Kamilia was born and grown up in (………). She was the eldest daughter -from her mother’s side – of five girls. Her father was a carpenter and had no other resources, but this did not stop him from marrying another wife and having 3 children with her.

    She used to remember how she felt deprived during her childhood when she compared herself with her colleagues at school. In spite of the limited resources in the house, she was performing well in School; her dream was to study law and work for women rights using her knowledge in law; she was a progressive woman and thought that women were oppressed in Sudan and she wanted to acquire the necessary knowledge that will make her in a better position to fight for women rights.

    The fact that her father acted in a selfish way and married another woman had affected her view about men, religion and culture. She used to question why men could freely drink and do all the sins and justify marrying for the second, third or even fourth time saying Islam allowed us. She thought they were not genuine about their beliefs and practices but just use Islam as a tool to oppress and frustrate women.

    When she was preparing to sit for higher secondary school examination, her father lost his sight and being the eldest in the house she has to work and support the family. She found a job in Khartoum as a secretary and decided to go to a nursing school as it requires only two years of training. Kamilia graduated and continued to support her family as the only breadwinner of the whole family. But she did not give up her dream of studying law and at a later stage she joined the law faculty at Cairo university branch of Khartoum.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 07:56 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    (2)
    She first met Imad in early 1986, when she was working in the second democratic election campaign following the fall of Nimeri regime. Imad was working as a lecturer in one of the universities and was also a member of the same Democratic Party Kamilia belonged to. During their work together in the election campaign a relationship developed between them. She was attracted to his open mind and his way of thinking, and specially his views and support to women rights. He liked her independence and confidence, and particularly her beauty and her charming personality. They started to meet quiet often after the election campaign ended, talked for long hours about their lives, their dreams, and the situation in Sudan. Her fond and admiration for him started to grow everyday. She thought it was very rare to meet someone like him; a liberal man with a lot of respect and support for women-somehow she believed he was an exceptional person. When they talked about relationships she talked about her only love relationship, the man she loved before was a medical doctor and he ended the relationship when he decided to marry his relative.

    She expressed to Imad how she thought men in general were selfish and hypocrites. They give themselves the full right to have s ex before marriage and judge women who do it. According to her this had nothing to do with Islam because the punishment in Islam did not discriminate in this regard between men and women-as any sexual act outside marriage is considered sinful for both. She thought many men do not care when they break the virginity of women, they do not question themselves (what will happen to those women? And how come I require my partner to be a virgin, when I myself did this with many women?).

    She also thought women didn’t stand for their rights and in many cases took the easy route and turn into hypocrites; many women after loosing their virginity, they either go and stitch or tell a dishonest story about how they lost it. In her view this will perpetuate the existing culture of hypocrisy and dishonesty and the practice of female circumcision gives room for that. Imad supported her view and expressed how he valued her honesty. He said he was happy to meet her and showed his interest in developing a relationship with her and even he started to introduce her to his friends as his fiancé.

    (عدل بواسطة Abdel Aati on 10-14-2004, 07:58 AM)

                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 07:58 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    to be continued
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 08:01 AM

Kostawi
<aKostawi
تاريخ التسجيل: 02-04-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 35233

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    You mentioned Muzan and I don't know how many persons I refered them to read her last 2 postings........
    sorry, but I couldn't help it....I will behave and read what you are going to say

    Here is Muzan's post

    Soul Prostitution

    (عدل بواسطة Kostawi on 10-14-2004, 08:05 AM)
    (عدل بواسطة Kostawi on 10-14-2004, 08:09 AM)
    (عدل بواسطة Kostawi on 10-14-2004, 08:18 AM)
    (عدل بواسطة Kostawi on 10-14-2004, 08:19 AM)

                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 10:01 AM

Outcast
<aOutcast
تاريخ التسجيل: 04-07-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 1029

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Kostawi)

    Veeeeery interesting.
    Adil, I cann't wait to hear the rest of the story

    Kostowi,
    Thank you for bringing our attention to the "Soul Prostitution" Post and pasting the link here, I meant to have a look at it before, and never managed to.
    It is a daring and beautiful post.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 10:07 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Outcast)

    (3)
    After two years of frequent meetings their feelings for each other grew deeper and they could not stop themselves from having an intimate relationship. They enjoyed being together to the extent that they even forget the time and sometimes even the other work and family obligations that called for them. Those were her happiest moments in life, and she was delighted that she met him. She thought he was different because he accepted her past. After her first love relationship ended; she decided to keep distance from men and was wondering if she will ever meet someone who will accept her with her past relation. She did not want to be a dishonest person and pretend and lie like some women do. Being a woman, of course, she dreamt of getting married to satisfy her natural instincts and desire of having children. She adored children and could spend hours playing with them and she always bought them presents. She wished her first born will be a girl and she promised herself to offer her all what she needs and will never let her experience the feeling of deprivation, poverty and destitution. Now she was lucky as fortune come to her side, it had given her Imad –the man of her dreams.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 10:11 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    (4)
    To her surprise Imad started to change, she could not comprehend the reason behind this sudden change. Every time they meet he continued to question her past relationship. Although she told him the whole story, that was not enough for him. He went and met the medical doctor and talked about it. When she knew it that day they had a big quarrel and arguments. She asked him (why you wanted to trace it, and you knew it was over) she accused him of not trusting her. He explained that he did not mean to trace, but he enquired because he was just not relaxed and not sure if the relationship was over, since she and the doctor worked in the same hospital. Their argument ended when he apologized to her and promised not to question it again. He said he is now confident of her honesty. However, he started to curtail her personal freedom and showed his suspicion whenever he saw her talking with another man.

    The mistrust and suspicion from Imad had created a lot of tension and frustration between them. That had its effect on Kamilia, she had lost her joy and cheerfulness and became more of a sad and withdrawn person. Kamilia who was known to be a charming person and always surrounded with friends-had stopped socializing and restricted herself between work and home. Caught up in this dilemma at times she started to regret that she has been honest and told him about her past relationship but then she reminded herself of her need to hold a high value for honesty and integrity.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 10:12 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    البقية تاتي ..
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 11:17 AM

Kabar
<aKabar
تاريخ التسجيل: 11-26-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 14203

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)


    Hi everybody..

    I appologise for using English..
    It's exciting experience...especially when it recalls Muzan postings..

    For Kamilia, although still there is more, I wish she could be her self, just her self ..because at the end of the day, she will be before the big question why she try to be honest? Is it for her self or is it for the society

    Another point, is it mainly about good education, high degree, being intellecual, etc..or it is about our socialization and its various agents , including school, system of values, religion, etc?
    I'll be back
    kabar
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 11:21 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Kabar)

    outcast, kostawi, kabar

    thanks for passing through

    i am sure the writer will come with comments to you all

    adil
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 11:31 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    (5)
    On 1992 summer a colleague of Kamilia showed his interest and desire to marry her and when Imad heard that he promised to make a step and discuss marriage plans with his father. Few weeks later he told her that his father did not agree and when she inquired about the reason, he said his father want him to marry his cousin. At a later stage it appeared that his father main objection was her profession (being a nurse)* . They stopped seeing each other and she planned to adjust her life with the new reality of him not being part of her life
    anymore. Two months later he started to contact her again and promised that he will try to make things work out.

    -------
    *In the early days (and may be till now) working as a nurse has a negative connotation. The first sectors women conquered were the health and education. Nurses and teachers are the pioneers for women rights to work but it was not an easy route and they suffered and paid the cost. Many people questioned their morals basically because they travel to different parts of the country, rent houses and work. This means there is no man to guard and control them.

    (عدل بواسطة Abdel Aati on 10-14-2004, 01:47 PM)

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10-14-2004, 12:16 PM

Kostawi
<aKostawi
تاريخ التسجيل: 02-04-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 35233

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Ohhhhh ya number 5

    Well, I will comment later
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 12:43 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Kostawi)

    (6)
    In 1995 Imad lost his job and decided to travel and work abroad, she supported him and welcomed the idea, as one of the excuses he repeatedly used for not making a further step in the relationship was the financial requirement for marriage. Imad travelled to Libya and found a good job in an oil company; they stayed in touch through frequent phones and seeing each other during his visit to Sudan. She was always hoping he will mention the marriage plan-but he never mentioned that. One day she decided to ask him and he suggested that first he will search a job for her in Libya and when she comes there they will discuss marriage plans. She was disappointed by his proposal and said they can make a small marriage ceremony before she travelled. But he refused and Kmilia started to doubt if he would ever decide to marry her. But still she sent her certificates to him.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 12:21 PM

Outcast
<aOutcast
تاريخ التسجيل: 04-07-2003
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Sorry, don't mean to rush you
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 01:52 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Outcast)

    (7)
    When Imad travelled to Libya Kmilia was 34 years old and her biological clock started to click? She started to worry that her dream of having children will never be realized? She felt so powerless- she started to hate being a woman-as she does not have the power of deciding on her own life and when she can have children. Instead she had to wait for a man to decide on when to marry. Now, even if this relationship ended with marriage, she ended up not wishing to have a daughter. She did not want to bring another powerless person to the world. She did not want to give birth to a girl who would suffer like her.
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 01:54 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    (
    She started to question why all this was happening to her. And why he was not making a step? She had discussed with many of her friends crying and talking about it and telling them the various messages she gets from him (inside herself she knew that she was looking for reassurance from her friends; she want comfort and want them to tell her he love you and it is a matter of time). Her friends instead were always saying to her you are blind with love and when we are involved in a relationship we don’t take notice of many negative signs from the other side. They advised her that the relationship had been going on for a long time and if he is really genuine he would have made a decision long time ago.

    Many of her friends advised her to stop the relationship and turn her back on him. Some of them kept silent and viewed it as a sensitive issue to discuss, although they thought that no way for this relation to move ahead and educated men are more hypocrites compared to non-educated men as they can not abandon their backward mentality. Maha said to her (if you are afraid of this virginity thing you know you can stitch and no man will know that?). She knew that many women did this; but then she first could not imagine herself with any other man and also she hated the pretence and cheating. Suad said (You should not have slept with him. you know men when you sleep with them they loose trust in women and thinks they are easy). Suad continued (a clever woman, will not sleep with the man she is targeting for marriage. If she wants, she can do that with another man). Inside herself Kamilia was thinking (this society is full of hypocrisy and a lot of contradictions: It punishes honesty and rewards dishonesty).
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-14-2004, 01:56 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    (9)
    Two weeks later, after Imad had sent her the necessary work contracts required for visa, Kamilia got sick with Malaria, the disease attacked her when she was in a terrible state of brain and mental exhaustion- she had lost interest in life and the will to resist the disease. Kamilia who used to comfort her patients when they are about to do a serious surgical operation telling them “first you should have faith in allah and also very important is to have a strong will as this is a key to the success of any operation”. She used to build hope and confidence on them by saying, “You need to strongly believe that this illness will not defeat you and you will make it”. Kamilia decided to put an end to her own grief; she took an overdose of pills enough to stop a heart full of pain and sorrow from beating.

    Kamilia died in Mid 1998, rest in peace (….) allah yarhmaik. You died full of agony and frustration from love relationship; you died before you made your dream of marriage and having children come true? May be what you felt for him was a confused emotion of love and powerlessness. May be what he felt for you was not genuine love? May be he was just feeling lust and desire for you? Maybe he was just a hypocrite? Only God knows.


    End
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10-14-2004, 07:57 PM

Kostawi
<aKostawi
تاريخ التسجيل: 02-04-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Quote: Only God knows
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10-14-2004, 09:57 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Kostawi)

    Salam Adil
    Thanks for making the post .........I just want to remind you on the footnote on number (5). Which reflects the negative view about the profession. You can put it with some mark that links it to (being a nurse).

    I will comment later to Kabar and the rest.

    thanks and good night,
                   <=====للزوار: للتعليق على هذا الخبر او المقال اضغط رد |Articles |News |مقالات |بيانات

10-15-2004, 05:50 AM

Outcast
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تاريخ التسجيل: 04-07-2003
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    I must admit, I felt very sad and speechless when I read the end of this story.

    Through out the journey of my life, I have come to a conclusion that "Hypocriy is the name of the Game".

    I looked also at Muzan's post, and it reminded me of the days when I was a teenager; I had the same agonizing questions about the social values and system prevailing in Sudan. Particularly the one regarding the contradictory code of conduct put for the females and males. I could not comprehend how a society would give one-half of its members the absolute freedom to do and behave as it wishes; and at the same time, penalize cruely the other half for the same behavior.
    To me it was so hypocritical to demand chastity and "purity" from women, while leting the men "run loose" and expect the community to maintain its "values" this way.
    "القاه فى اليم مكتوفا و قال له ..
    أياك .. أياك أن تبتل بالماء"....
    I have never accepted this hypocritical rule; it's not based on any ideology or religion, as the charcacter said in the story" Islam, which is supposedly the religion of our society penalized the male and female for all out-of-wedlock sexual behavior". So , I am not sure how our society came up with this highly hypocritical rule.

    The story obviously tells a lesson that, trying to defy social rules and the attempt to dismantle a highly held belief (even if this belief is hypocrite) has its deadly price. I am not sure if anyone would choose to pay such a price, may be this is why women (and men too) would rather prostitute their souls than facing such a tragic consequences.

    I have learnt that one cannot single-handedly re-write the social rules in a society; it should be a combined effort where we should focus on exposing and reforming a whole system with all its economic, social, and political aspects ; an unjust system that is giving rise and strengthening such hypocricies. A system that penalize the weak for being weak, where it has made him/her that way.

    I am writing this under the influence of the story, but may be I will be able to collect and organize my thoughts better after I get over it.

    Thanks for the writer of this honest and beautiful story, and thank you Adil for posting it.

    (عدل بواسطة Outcast on 10-20-2004, 07:57 AM)

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10-19-2004, 10:39 AM

mohamed elshiekh
<amohamed elshiekh
تاريخ التسجيل: 05-12-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 1276

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    قصةحزينةوتبدوواقعية


    up
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10-19-2004, 10:07 PM

saadeldin abdelrahman
<asaadeldin abdelrahman
تاريخ التسجيل: 09-03-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 8853

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Salam Brother Adil and everybody,
    Thanks for the tragic story..

    Quote: She expressed to Imad how she thought men in general were selfish and hypocrites.
    They give themselves the full right to have ####### before marriage and judge women who do it. According to her this had nothing to do with Islam because the punishment in Islam did not discriminate in this regard between men and women-as any sexual act outside marriage is considered sinful for both. She thought many men do not care when they break the virginity of women, they do not question themselves (what will happen to those women? And how come I require my partner to be a virgin, when I myself did this with many women?).

    I got hooked to this part which has been a a stubborn question that jumps in my head for a
    long time and whenever it had the chance to do so , and I'm afraid that the rest of the male community (big difference between males and men) as every man is male but not every male is a man. Truly, Islam didn't discriminate between males and females regarding the sinful act of adultery or fornication.. but, the basic issue is mercy not the punishment..We all know the story of the woman who came and confessed to the prophet (pbuh) and he (pbuh) . asked her to come back many times. This is the fact that the society doesn't want to implement to precede mercy not punishment.. I don't know why? is it because we want to purify ourselves and repent and get closer to allah by torturing others?... when he (almighty) and his prophet (pbuh) placed it otherwise ..
    Moreover, the virginity issue is really huge and i think we need to set a post for it because I agree with what Kamilia said but I see that alot of people won't carry on with the marriage if the bride wasn't virgin, although, those same males might have taken away many teenagers girls virginity back in the days!

    the qusetions continue and presist...


    All the best
    Abualsaud
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10-20-2004, 07:43 AM

مزن ابوعبيدة النيل
<aمزن ابوعبيدة النيل
تاريخ التسجيل: 08-08-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 556

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: saadeldin abdelrahman)

    First it's really great to know that something I wrote has touched someone to write this

    I loved how kamilia came out of her life with her family with such strong values
    Not every one well come out like this, in fact I think most people would've came out of it destroyed and surrendering and nothing more than one more added soul to the ones that were sold

    What kamilia's friend said about sleeping with a man and marrying another is what made me sick
    I think our main problem is that we don’t talk about our problems
    We just think that keeping silent may take'em away
    But in fact it just increases them
    A lot of people need to know that it is ok not to look perfect
    In fact it's not ok to act perfect
    Because than we'll just be taking from what's inside as and using it to cover what's in the surface
    And in the end we'll be empty statues following rules we don’t even believe in or know who put'em

    It kills me to be a part ot this cosity
    But makes me proud that there is people like kamilia in it

    I'll be back
    It hurts too much to write about this




    muzan

    salam
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11-05-2004, 01:29 PM

mohamed elshiekh
<amohamed elshiekh
تاريخ التسجيل: 05-12-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 1276

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: مزن ابوعبيدة النيل)

    Quote:


    A lot of people need to know that it is ok not to look perfect
    In fact it's not ok to act perfect




    I agree with you Muzan no one is perfect

    الكمال للة وحدة
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10-20-2004, 10:13 PM

saadeldin abdelrahman
<asaadeldin abdelrahman
تاريخ التسجيل: 09-03-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 8853

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    up
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10-21-2004, 11:06 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: saadeldin abdelrahman)

    سلام للجميع
    شكرا للمساهمات وحسب وعد المؤلفة فانها ستعود اليكم بالردود.

    عادل
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11-08-2004, 03:34 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    تحية للجميع
    ادناه ردود المؤلفة
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11-08-2004, 03:35 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Dear all
    رمضان كريم
    و كل سنة وانتو طيبين

    First I apologize for the late response as I was busy with my study.

    Thanks for your comments on the story. Yes the story was tragic and was real, Kamilia as I named her in the story was a very close person to me, it hurts me a lot when I remember how she suffered and to accept the reality that she vanished from this life. اللة يرحمها و يحسن اليها.

    I will give my response to each of you individually.
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11-08-2004, 03:37 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Dear Kabar

    The story is criticizing the behaviour of those who raise slogans of (women rights and women equality) and fail to live consistently with them. For some-if not all- women equality is just lips-services for political and social gains- as many of them have contradictions between what they say and what they do-a clear double stand. The grandfather mentality still exists in the back of their minds and they suffer from intellectual schizophrenia. Ironically, they think about making social and political change in Sudan, but few of them think about changing their selves.

    I agree with what you said it has to do with our socialization process and its various agents. But if we just keep blaming our social system, then the question is who will make the change? And how can we make the change? I know it is not an easy route but the least we can do is to expose the hypocrisy that prevails at the individual level and at the society level and reveal the unfair treatments towards women. Another question what is the value of education if one could not set his own belief system objectively (questioning the unacceptable and the unjust norms and social rules). Of course that is not enough; most important is to have integrity and consistency between what one believes and what one practice in day-to-day life.

    Thanks again for your valuable comments and hope to hear from you.

    Note: I read some of your writings on the discussion board and generally think you have a critical view to our social system and rules. One of your posts in relation to the story is
    أمهات خارج التخطيط:ملاحظات اولية حول مشاكل الجنس خارج نطاق الزواج

    In which you showed that women (who commit adultery and get pregnant in the process) take the sole responsibility of this illegal pregnancy (legally, socially and morally) and men escape from the responsibility.
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11-08-2004, 03:41 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Dear Outcast

    Thanks first for feeling the story and for your valuable contribution (generally) in SOL. I agree fully with what you wrote (hypocrisy is the name of the game), specially when it comes to women; it is disease form which our society suffer. In fact it is the common denominator between those on the left side and those on the right side, but from different angles (of course there are some few exceptions).

    Here is something about hypocrisy:

    Hypocrisy is derived from the Greek word hypokrisis, which meant playing a part on the stage, or putting on a mask to misrepresent reality. In the ancient Greek theatre, actors were known as hypocrites, without any negative connotation. A good actor, if he hoped to portray his part accurately and persuasively, would try to take on his character's role as much as possible; he would put great effort into knowing and understanding the character he was portraying. The goal of the actor's performance was to win the approval and applause of his audience by presenting a compelling presentation of his character. This desire for applause motivated actors to work many long, hard hours developing their craft. In the real world however, being a hypocrite, pretending to be something while actually being something else, was and is definitely viewed as wrong.
    Hypocrisy is not practicing what we preach. It is the pretence involved in telling other people how they ought to conduct their lives while we do not live consistently with those beliefs ourselves. Hypocrisy is asserting one thing and doing another and not being honest about it. The degree of hypocrisy can be expressed mathematically as:
    Hypocrisy = Beliefs- Actions

    People generally strive to equate their beliefs and actions to have zero degree of hypocrisy. Psychologists argue that when hypocrisy exists then an imbalance will exist inside the individual. These imbalances will create an anxiety that can last for years in honest objective people and only seconds for those who set their beliefs and perception of reality non-objectively to rationalize their own actions.

    When a hypocritical imbalance occurs individuals will question their own honesty and objectivity and evaluate their internal feelings. Those who suffer from short term anxiety are called ‘’bias rationalizers’’ this group will set their hypocrisy equal zero by changing their beliefs so that they are equal to their actions. In my view, this is a dangerous and dishonest group as they lack personal integrity and they arrive at their beliefs non-objectively and justify their actions by changing their beliefs. As the English writer Samuel Johnson said ’Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful’’.
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11-09-2004, 00:12 AM

nour tawir
<anour tawir
تاريخ التسجيل: 08-16-2004
مجموع المشاركات: 13636

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    The price is always heavy and COROSSIVE
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11-10-2004, 01:37 PM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: nour tawir)

    فوق حتي عودة المؤلفة ..
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12-14-2004, 08:31 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    من المؤلفة:

    --------------------------
    Dear All

    Here I am trying to wrap up this story before the year-end archiving.

    Dear Kostawi, Mohamed Elshiekh and Nour Tawir thanks for raising the post and passing by.

    My friend Muzan, I am still following your nice writings on the board and keep the good work up.

    Dear Saadeldin
    First it is really good to see that some men also think and criticise this hypocrisy. My comments to you will revolve around 2 points.
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12-14-2004, 08:32 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Adultery - as you said the basic issue in Islam (and other religions as well) regarding the sinful act of adultery is mercy and not punishment. In Christianity there is also the famous story of the woman taken in adultery and men want to stone her then Jesus delivers the judgment that attacks the heart of the hypocrisy ‘’ Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her’’ (John 8:9). ‘’ But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him’’ (John 8:10). So, the story obviously tells that the men who assembled to stone the woman were all guilty of the same sin or worse crimes. And tells that before judging others and punishing them we have to look first to our own selves and see what sins and mistakes we did in life. Of course if everyone did this we will be living in a Utopia or an ideal world. But the real life is full of hypocrites and evils.

    The old saying says (It takes two to tango) which means the crime of adultery is committed in pairs, but in our society and other Moslems world only women had to pay for their sins and must be punished. The legal punishment is Islam as well as other religions is equal for men and women, but the social hypocrisy in our society over history had lead to a double stand when considering sin committed by men versus sin committed by women. Our society tended to be more permissive towards men forgiving them for sins not forgive able when women do them. I would understand that a man who did not commit an adultery to demand a virgin for marriage- because this would be an honest requirement and consistency between belief and practice; otherwise, it will just be a double stand and hypocrisy.
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12-14-2004, 08:35 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    Virginity: Some Sudanese men can marry a Western woman without even questioning her past relations. The argument to support their apparently hypocritical behaviour– is their culture is different (so, this the same like saying: when in Rome do as the Romans do). Does this mean that our belief system change with the place- as we move from place to the other, we leave our beliefs behind and adopt the beliefs of the new place we moved to-the same like changing our clothes. Also if we talk about past relations and explicitly about the concept of ‘’virginity’’ probably all of us know that during the ‘’middle ages’’ in Europe women were locked up by their husbands using a metal lock that cover the lower parts of their bodies and the husband had the full right to hold the key of the lock.
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12-14-2004, 08:42 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    This lock was called the ‘’virginity belt’’. The motive for it is: men wants to make sure that no other man will have ####### with their woman. Of course this has changed by various groups and movements that struggled for and advocated women rights in controlling their own body. The virginity belt now can only be seen in Museums in Europe as a symbol of the black middle age era. The question here, why Sudanese men accept past sexual acts of women whose country struggled for ages to make men accept their past relations and not question it, did they change their mindsets or is it just a double-stand? I am not against the idea of marrying foreigners (be it a Sudanese man marrying a foreigner or a Sudanese woman marrying a foreigner) as I believe love and human relations do not know boundaries. But I am questioning the double-stand of men who agree to marry foreigners without changing their mentality.

    It is sad that in Sudan we still want to keep this virginity belt in the form of circumcision and want to curb women sexuality. Circumcision has been widely discussed to raise awareness against this harmful practice. But one related point which was not mentioned or discussed is the link between circumcision and false virginity, as some women stitch after loosing their virginity to meet the hypocritical rule -required virginity for women.

    Finally, you said a nice statement (every man is a male but not every male is a man), I have been following a nice post initiated by the smart woman Iman Ahmed on what defines manhood. Hopefully I will write a small contribution to this question and I hope you can find time to follow that discussion.

    الرجولة

    Thanks again specially to Adil for posting the story and happy New Year to all
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12-30-2004, 08:54 PM

إيمان أحمد
<aإيمان أحمد
تاريخ التسجيل: 10-08-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 3468

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Abdel Aati)

    .
    أخي العزيز عادل عبد العاطي
    تحية واحترام، وتمنيات بعام قادم أسعد

    أولاً أعذرني لعدم المداخلة في البوست الممتع، فقط أود تأكيد أني تابعته منذ بدايته.
    ثم أني لمحت كلمات الكاتبة الأخيرة لكن ضاع مني الخيط وغرقنا فيما غرقنا فيه، فعذر آخر.

    أسمح لي أولاً أن أشكرك علي نشر القصة، ودأبك علي جذب الأقلام المتفردة إلي المنبر. وأن أحيي كاتبتها التي تناولتها بذكاء عالي وقدرة ذهنية متميزة.
    لفتت نظري أيضاً كتابات الزميلة مزن، فشكراً للكاتبة علي الإشارة لها.

    مؤسف أن تدفع كاميليا ثمناً فادحاً هو الحياة، وأن يتوقف قلب ملئ بالحب والإنسانية بصرخة داوية، علَ هناك من يسمع.
    الكاتبة لمست جوانب متعددة لقضايا متشابكة منها الزراية ببعض المهن، والمفاهيم الاجتماعية الثقافية المعقدة في علائق الرجل والمرأة.
    وددت أن أشكر الكاتبة علي كلماتها - وأشكرك علي نقلك لتلك الكلمات- في حقي وحق الخيط الذي ابتدرته عن "الرجولة" كمفهوم، محاولةً مع الآخرين/ات تفكيك هذا المصطلح/المفهوم وسبر أغواره خاصة فيما يتعلق بحقوق الآخر الذي هو في أغلب الأحيان امرأة، وفي بعضها رجلاً آخر، وفي القليل منها طفل أو فرد من أفراد المجتمع، غض النظر عن نوعه الاجتماعي. وقد أتحفتنا المتداخلات/ين في ذلك الخيط بالكثير من النقاش القيم والمفيد، فشكراً للجميع.

    أرجو أن تسمح لي (رغم انتهاء العام) بربط وصلة هذا الموضوع بذلك الخيط، بهدف التوثيق حيث يساعدنا (آخرين/ات وشخصي) كمراجع إن احتجناها لبحث بعض المواضيع. (مازلت يا عادل أتعامل مع المواضيع هنا علي أنها مراجع غنية ومع الموقع كمصدر هام لكتابات فيما يخص مجتمعنا السوداني حيث تعلمون أن مثل هذه الكتابات شحيحة والوصول إليها صعب).

    لك وللكاتبة ولكل المتداخلات/ين هنا تحياتي واحترامي
    وأمنياتي بعام جديد يرقي إلي طموحات الجميع

    محبتي
    إيمان
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12-30-2004, 09:00 PM

Outcast
<aOutcast
تاريخ التسجيل: 04-07-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 1029

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: إيمان أحمد)

    What a coincidence Iman
    I was about to UP this story
    Thx
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12-30-2004, 09:13 PM

إيمان أحمد
<aإيمان أحمد
تاريخ التسجيل: 10-08-2003
مجموع المشاركات: 3468

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: Outcast)

    Welcome, Outcast
    .I really enjoyed reading it
    Regards
    Iman
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12-31-2004, 02:56 AM

Abdel Aati
<aAbdel Aati
تاريخ التسجيل: 06-13-2002
مجموع المشاركات: 32869

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كيف احذف مداخلة من بوستى
Re: The Price of Honesty (Re: إيمان أحمد)

    العزيزات ايمان واوتكاست

    من المؤسف ان تظل كاتبة هذه القصة مجهولة لكن وللجميع؛ وذلك للظروف المختلفة التي جعلتها تفضل نشر القصة غفلا عن التوقيع؛ وارسال التعليقات عن طريقي هكذا؛ واعتقد اننا سنلتقي معها مرات ومرات؛ في حوارات وكتابات قادمة؛ باسمها الحقيقي تلك المرات.
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